doug ronan removed as director from copa

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CpnCrunch
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by CpnCrunch »

AirFrame wrote:
Docav8or wrote:Only the administrator of the E-petition can see who has signed it - the COPA staff will never see it.
I suspect if the petition is ever to be used as a club to call a Special Meeting of COPA members, that the list will be made public enough to confirm that all people calling for the Special Meeting are indeed COPA members. Someone on the COPA staff will need to see it.
What have you got to lose? Most of us who signed the petition are planning on leaving COPA anyway if this isn't resolved.
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Taiser
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by Taiser »

"I suspect if the petition is ever to be used as a club to call a Special Meeting of COPA members, that the list will be made public enough to confirm that all people calling for the Special Meeting are indeed COPA members. Someone on the COPA staff will need to see it."
Who cares? What could they do, turf me out?? If they do that then I would categorize that as something Caesar would have done to the Roman Senate! If that is the case then that is NOT an organization I will want to be part of!
Being afraid to make a stink because of fear of "repercussions" is the dictionary definition of DICTATORSHIP and quite frankly, they need us more than we need them... strength in numbers and all that jazz!!! :wink:
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AirFrame
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by AirFrame »

@Taiser, I agree. I just thought it was silly that someone would suggest that there was no risk to signing the petition because the list was private.

When one stands up for what's right, one needs to have the courage to do so openly, regardless of consequences. Gandhi, MLK, etc. all knew this.
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Justjohn
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by Justjohn »

Bump
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H Christensen
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by H Christensen »

Presumably all COPA members have now received their August editions of COPA Flight, the association's monthly newspaper. And those interested in this topic have likely read both of Chairman of the Board Paul Hayes's articles: 'Board of Directors and staff responsibilities at COPA' and 'Informing members about recent intervenion by COPA Board'.
In his effort to "quell the rumours" and to "ensure the facts are available" to members, Hayes goes to great lengths to argue that when a board decision is taken it behooves all Directors to uphold and support the "collective wisdom".
To this point, I would argue that if you and I and a bunch of other aviators decided on a weekend breakfast destination, including the routing, and all agreed that would mean we go to that destination along the approved route no matter what, then that's what we would do.
But wait!
You voted in favour of the routing but, dammit, there's a thunderstorm none of us anticipated and it's right there in our proposed direction. The leader of the group says he doesn't care, that you're going against the group decision and it behooves you to uphold and support the collective wisdom.
If you're anything like me -- or like Doug Ronan -- you suggest that we should probably re-visit the routing.
I sent a note to COPA Flight publisher Michael Hell July 29th, as follows:

Dear Mr. Hell:
Were I to write a Letter to the Editor taking exception to both of Mr. Hayes's
contributions in the August COPA Flight, would it -- provided my letter meets editorial
standards -- be published?
More to the point, I intend taking a strong stand opposed to Mr. Hayes and want your
assurance that I would not be wasting my time in responding because of censorial
considerations at your end.
Kind regards,
H Christensen

It's now three days later and no response. This suggests to me that opinions which run contrary to the 'Board line' are neither invited nor welcome.
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AirFrame
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by AirFrame »

Initially, the Board and the Chair did the best thing they could in the circumstances, by shutting up and staying quiet on the subject. I don't understand why they would bother putting two articles in the newsletter on it now. An internet newsgroup isn't going to overthrow the entire organization, nor is any noise we make going to change the decision the board made. We represent a slim, nearly non-existent minority of members, and the 10000 views on this topic are little more than the 100 views by each of the 100 people watching this thread.

Yes, the board overstepped its bounds by evicting Mr. Ronan. That much is clear. A good effort was made to rally the troops and show our displeasure. Unfortunately, the lack of participation here and the lack of support for the survey show very clearly that the vast majority of members don't think it's important.
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BGH
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by BGH »

When I sent my concerns to psutka - he at least advised me that he forwarded my concerns to the board of directors.When I wrote hayes to advise him of my concern for the method used I got nothing in reply.
I suppose I would of read the response in the copa paper that just came - had I opened it;you see I'm concidering returning it unopened as my personal protest to this crooked chain of events.

Daryl
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by EA757 »

docav8or, dstechnical and Doug Ronan,

If you folks are not collectively happy with the responses
that the COPA board has issued, and you truly desire to
have greater exposure and a good outcome to this matter,
may I make one suggestion.

The Toronto Star is ALWAYS interested in everything
that happens at, around, and about Billy Bishop Airport.
May I recommend an exceedingly bright and fair
journalist by the name of Rosie DiManno. Her email
is rdimanno@thestar.com. I know that she is
extremely busy right now with the Yatim homicide,
but if you send her a polite well written story, I am
sure you will get a response. Tell her about COPA, and
have her read this section of av canada so she can
get a true feeling for the situation before she does
her investigation.

Or, maybe you have someone you know at the CBC,
or CTV or the Sun.

My point is if you want to effect some change, best
you go to the town square, because the choir has
heard the song.

Much luck...
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floatplaneflyer
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by floatplaneflyer »

August 4, 2013

Dear Mr. Hayes and the COPA Board of Directors,

I am a long term member of AOPA and fly in Canada several times a year. I have always admired the good work COPA does representing general aviation throughout Canada. I joined COPA to support the organization that makes flying better for all pilots in Canada. However, I am troubled by the recent termination of Doug Ronan as an elected Director and member of COPA. I have lived in the Chicago area for 35 years and this looks and smells like Chicago style politics at their best.

The Board’s instructions to the COPA staff to not renew Mr. Ronan’s membership and make him ineligible to remain a Director, contradict COPA By-Laws and are a violation of the Canada Not-for-profit Corporations Act enacted into law on October 17, 2011.
The NFP Act of 2011 specifically states that "the by-laws must prescribe the process to be followed to terminate a membership".

COPA By-laws approved by the members on June 22, 2013:

Section 1, paragraph 1.01H, defines "Members" as the collective membership of the Corporation.

Paragraph E of Section 3.04, “Termination of Membership,” specifically requires a vote of the Members by way of a Special Resolution to remove a member from the Corporation.

Section V, paragraph 5.09, “a Director of the Corporation may only be removed from his elected position by an Ordinary Resolution passed at a meeting of Members”.

In your letter to the membership on the COPA web site and in the August issue of “COPA Flight” you wrote: “the Board instructed its staff not to renew the membership of Mr. Ronan, which expired on June 30, 2013." This order disregarded Mr. Ronan’s membership rights provided to all members by the COPA By-laws and thus violated a key provision of the NFP Act. Unless the Board can cite pertinent paragraphs published in the By-laws supporting the order not to renew Mr. Ronan’s membership, their actions are null and void. The general membership should recognize Mr. Ronan as a legal member of COPA and an elected Director of the Corporation.

The COPA Board of Directors instructions to the staff to contravene the By-laws and not accept Mr. Ronan's renewal fee may have exposed COPA to Court intervention. The NFP Act provides several legal remedies to a member that is unjustly terminated from a nonprofit organization that range from a restraining order to an order dissolving the Corporation.

All the members of COPA have the absolute right per the By-laws of the COPA Constitution to vote on a Special Resolution to expel Doug Ronan from COPA. The members also have the Constitutional right to vote on an Ordinary Resolution to remove Mr. Ronan as a Director.

Mr. Hayes, as the Chairman of the Board of Directors, you have a moral responsibility to COPA and the aviation community to call a meeting of the members within the next 30 days to vote on a Special Resolution and, if necessary, an Ordinary Resolution on the status of Mr. Ronan as a member and Director of COPA. If you refuse to act, the Eastern or Western Vice-Chairs of the Board have the right to call a meeting of the members.

COPA members and the Government of Canada deserve an explanation of why the Corporation is not in violation of the Canada Not-for-profit Corporations Act. The members have the right to know why the Board did not adhere to the By-laws to remove a member.

Sincerely,
Brian Wendt
COPA member 1609881
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bmc
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by bmc »

Brian

Impressive!

Brian (aka bmc)
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Justjohn
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by Justjohn »

Bump
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floatplaneflyer
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by floatplaneflyer »

Justjohn,
What does your comment "Bump" mean?
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photofly
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by photofly »

It means he wants it to rise to the top of the "active topics" list, because that way another nine hundred COPA members who haven't yet seen it and who he presumes are lurking on this site will read it and decide to sign the petition.

(You're welcome.)
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by jjbaker »

Bump.

It appears as if the petition isn't really gaining much traction. Of course letters to the editor will not be published unless in accordance/ in line with going doctrine.
Letting this go is a cardinal and fatal mistake folks.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by 2R »

2R wrote:
Colonel Sanders wrote:
"Sorry we do not refund memberships."
Phone COPA back up and tell them that you
disagree with the Board of Directors, and you
demand exactly the same treatment that they
gave Doug Ronan. Ask to speak to the President,
even if he denies any knowledge or involvement
in this issue, which is fantastically implausible :roll:
according to the COPA President, if you involved in GA and you are not a COPA member, you are getting "a free ride".
I think we have to agree with him on that, because he's the expert on that subject.

POST OF THE YEAR AWARD :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
bump bump
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jjbaker
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by jjbaker »

It is perfectly natural (nevertheless gravely wrong) to wish for such issues to just go away, for members and leadership of the organization alike. Grass will grow over it and before anyone knows, it never happened. You give into this kind of game once, you are lost and sold out for good. There comes a point when associations get away with anything, because it worked the last time and they become to big to fail. We get to see the same behavior (better hidden with a weaker audience for discussions on it) here in the U.S. with our so-called non profit organizations. We're in the dumpster already with very little left for members options and political correctness doctrines running the press, media and many forums.

Image
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floatplaneflyer
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by floatplaneflyer »

JJ,
You are right about the implications for COPA when the membership accepts the insidious actions of the leadership of an organization. The termination of Doug Ronan's membership using the thin premise that a when a member is renewing his membership, the officers of COPA have the right to deny that renewal on the grounds of their own determination sets a precedent that they can do what ever they want with the organization. The total lack of interest by the membership to support a Special Meeting of the members to discuss the removal of an elected representative from COPA is demoralizing and disappointing. Doug Ronan was an activist member of the Board and someone that lives and breath's general aviation. COPA members have lost an advocate for improving and protecting the rights of GA in Canada. The perception in Ottawa and by Transport Canada has to be that as long as the members of COPA can buy lower cost insurance and get a copy "COPA Flight" once a month they could care less about what agenda COPA has or who makes the decisions.
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jjbaker
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by jjbaker »

floatplaneflyer wrote:JJ,
You are right about the implications for COPA when the membership accepts the insidious actions of the leadership of an organization. The termination of Doug Ronan's membership using the thin premise that a when a member is renewing his membership, the officers of COPA have the right to deny that renewal on the grounds of their own determination sets a precedent that they can do what ever they want with the organization. The total lack of interest by the membership to support a Special Meeting of the members to discuss the removal of an elected representative from COPA is demoralizing and disappointing. Doug Ronan was an activist member of the Board and someone that lives and breath's general aviation. COPA members have lost an advocate for improving and protecting the rights of GA in Canada. The perception in Ottawa and by Transport Canada has to be that as long as the members of COPA can buy lower cost insurance and get a copy "COPA Flight" once a month they could care less about what agenda COPA has or who makes the decisions.
That sounds like the music we get to hear down here in the glorious non profit land of busted dreams... :cry:
But, I hazard a guess and venture that COPA members (those who could and would take the 5 minutes it would take to sign the petition) are strategically kept in the dark. The association is obviously decided on sitting this out. According to what I get for heads up, it seems as if COPA is giving the members two choices.
  • Pay for a legal fight that will settle the issue, likely ending in paying full salary and benefits to the big wigs... until they finally decide to leave on their own terms... (seen that before); OR
  • Sit down and shut up...
How well has the issue been covered in the press and aviation media?
In other words, is it really a lack of interest or is it a lack of awareness and critical thought/ debate?

If grass grows over it, it never happened. Ask me how I know... :lol:

Cheers,

JJ
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floatplaneflyer
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by floatplaneflyer »

The issue has been on this forum since June. It has received hundreds of views, but very little support for a Special Meeting. The By-laws require a petition signed by 5% of the membership to have a Special Meeting. Possibly 1% signed a petition that covered this issue plus a few concerns. Some members said they would sign a specific petition about this issue, but not many posts called for a new petition.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by jjbaker »

We have the same issue with seaplane advocacy issues on my seaplaneforum.com, so I fully sympathize with your frustration, floatplaneflyer!
It seems to be the same people, over and over again, willing to take the time to do anything, such as writing letters or pressuring corrupt legislators.
Sometimes it makes you wonder if people are really that ignorant and dumb, or if they just love their luxury club magazine subscriptions too much to rock the boat.
I still believe that forums are considered nuisances in the game, eventually debates go to the bottom of the board and fade away. Press articles stay and public relations issues are generally a 'reason to act'... Doug is one of us, he deserves better than this. We deserve better than this, no matter where we happen to fly.

Things happen when stuff hits the news, especially when arbitrary decisions affect many of us. It doesn't matter if the issue is advocacy or corrupt advocacy groups. Most of the time, I admit, the press likes to write about rosy clouds and the romance of flight, but every once in a while they will pick up the ball and run with it... Get your publishers and editors in line and stuff will happen. COPA's move is corrupt. Silence is approval.
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Last edited by jjbaker on Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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