doug ronan removed as director from copa

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H Christensen
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by H Christensen »

Floatplaneflyer made this observation: "The perception in Ottawa and by Transport Canada has to be that as long as the members of COPA can buy lower cost insurance and get a copy "COPA Flight" once a month they could care less about what agenda COPA has or who makes the decisions."

Harsh but true. Too many of us sit on the sidelines and, instead of taking part and doing the right thing, we sit on our hands in hopes of being entertained.
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kamikaze
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by kamikaze »

All this has also sparked another interesting question ... which is how to reach the membership.

If there are provisions regarding contesting the leadership, but those provisions require membership outreach, but said leadership are the only ones that have access to the member's list, well, you have a pretty big problem there too.

Maybe the membership list should be open to all other members, or something along those lines. With today's web technologies you could do this while still retaining reasonable privacy for the members.

As for the current effort, anyone who thinks this thread constitutes a proper outreach effort is completely off their rockers. This is just a vocal minority ... you need to a much broader outreach to effect change, hence my first comments ...
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AirFrame
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by AirFrame »

@kamikaze: You've hit the nail right on the head.
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jjbaker
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by jjbaker »

kamikaze wrote:All this has also sparked another interesting question ... which is how to reach the membership.
The membership is intentionally shielded from each others reach just exactly to avoid folks who get knowledge of some of these mafia style games from rocking the boat. Imagine someone could contact a couple hundred members and let them know... and what it would do to revenue. What if suddenly advertisers told them to pound sand... Exactly why making this into a public relations nightmare for them is so darn important. Things will happen real quick when membership cancellations come hailing in, but revenue is really the only way to force them to use their brains.
As for the current effort, anyone who thinks this thread constitutes a proper outreach effort is completely off their rockers. This is just a vocal minority ... you need to a much broader outreach to effect change, hence my first comments ...
Exactly my words. I'll go one further and say anyone who thinks the press hasn't been informed and made aware and thinks they wont cover the issue for any other reason than to keep the peace with these monster size associations, is out of their mind. The press is obviously more interested to write slimy advertising articles and paint the picture of rosy skies, than to do their job and inform people about this stuff.

From what I hear there is the option of raising this issue on a legal basis. Members inquiring are told that there will be tremendous costs involved for the membership if the bosses get called out for their stunts. In fact, that's exactly what needs to happen. I remember all too well an Executive Director threatening anything and everybody with a huge lawsuit, finally being allowed to serve his term. The last 6 months of his reign broke the associations back irreparably.

Remember: La mamma dei cretini è sempre incinta. The mother of idiots is always pregnant.

P.S.: I don't know Doug Ronan from a hole in the wall, never spoke a single word with him. Yet, I sympathize with him because friends of mine cannot cancel their membership and receive a refund, which is exactly what was done with Doug. You can't tell me that its okay to boot a director this way, and a member who begs for the same treatment can't have it.
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jjbaker
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by jjbaker »

Sorry, me again... :lol:

Just read some of the stuff posted about Mr. Ronan attending a meeting which he was asked not to attend, or, if attending, not in representation of COPA.

So, I happen to own and operate a forum with several hundred members. Can I go to any aviation related meeting as an invited guest or do I have to decline for fear of being accused of wrongly representing my membership? Last time I checked, I could speak my opinion freely (however unpopular it may be within certain associations) and disagree with god and his dog, without having a conflict of interest arise. Last time I checked, I represent & position my website and membership publicly only in official statements on that website or when using my logo and letterhead in official communication. Other than that, my name is Jason Baker, I am a pilot and I take the liberty to attend any meeting/ discussion just like any other pilot as I damn well please. Doug can walk his dog along the pier and tell anybody anything he wants to say, he is simply not acting on behalf of COPA 24/7 by default and saying anything doesn't require a disclaimer, either. To me it sounds like someone got their panties in a bunch about him being at that meeting. Kindergarten!

To me it doesn't matter if he (Doug) wants the board seat back or not, I would skip that seat too, after this stunt, but - there is a proper procedure for getting a unwanted member off the board of directors. Upholding the integrity of an association requires proper procedures to be followed. I don't even think it's too late to come clean and make this problem go away. I have met and talked with thousands of pilots across the globe, not once have I met one I couldn't apologize to and be given the opportunity to make a wrong I committed, right. Man up Mr. Hayes, Man up Mr. Psutka and set the record straight. People will respect you both more for manning up and doing the right thing.

I will roast in hell with a Martini in my hand before I spend a dime on any single aviation non profit association, ever again.
Psutka is a small fish. Some of the clowns we get to represent us clear well more than a million a year for nothing but hot air and failure.

So, my Canadian friends and COPA members, you have a choice...

Bark & bite, spread the word, don't let go of the issue or... let go of it and loose what once was a proud association.
Contact their sponsors or call the insurance broker on file to cancel your coverage. When asked why, ask them to talk you out of it after reading this thread.

:twisted:

Believe me, it works!
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floatplaneflyer
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by floatplaneflyer »

How about this for Chicago style politics and intimidation. A person close to COPA told me recently that COPA President Psutka is demanding that Doug Ronan issue a public apology for his remarks about some of the board members and the President or he would be sued for defamation of character. Ronan should be suing Hayes and Psutka for remarks they have made about his motivation to speak out about the short sighted and poorly informed decisions the board has made. The members should demand Psutka and Hayes explain why they are spending $25000 of members money to fight Porter Airlines. Wait until every member's insurance rates go up when they renew with COPA because the board contracted with an agency that wrote such bad policies the underwriter withdrew from covering COPA policy's. The big announcement in "Copa Flight" about this new underwriter, AIG, didn't mention they had to scramble to find someone to cover COPA policies because the existing underwriter canceled their contract with COPA's new agency.
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Last edited by floatplaneflyer on Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
jjbaker
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by jjbaker »

floatplaneflyer wrote:How about this for Chicago style politics and intimidation. One of the COPA officials told me recently that COPA President Psutka is demanding that Doug Ronan issue a public apology for his remarks about some of the board members and the President or he would be sued for defamation of character.
That sounds like what I went through with a certain Executive Director who threatened to sue the poop out of me for defamation of character... libel and all kinds of other things... :lol: He also threatened to sue the association (which faltered to his demands for silence) and even got them to issue a public blanket approval for his actions. I remember being threatened directly and through the grapevine by others (association sponsors), up to an including telling me that my "future & aviation career" was on the line for allowing certain discussions on my forum without censoring and shutting people up. Guess what... The funny thing is: If you stay with the truth, you have nothing to fear. There is a lot of bark but very little bite. People appreciate honesty and conviction more than threats of lawsuits. My attitude: Better kill me on your first shot and don't hesitate when you have an opportunity to take me down.

Our people need to move beyond being divided by technicalities and textual interpretation of that petition. COPA can count on hobby lawyers who are afraid to rock the boat. In the end, its a right vs. wrong issue. If we have a point, we will support Doug in any upcoming legal battle and its worth the time, money and effort... Let them sue. By the time its all out on the table, COPA will wish it had acted differently. Revenue is a powerful thing... :idea:
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floatplaneflyer
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by floatplaneflyer »

I'm in. Where do I send the check...? This will be the easiest law suite to win in a long time. All settlements go to COPA.
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BGH
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by BGH »

The only way copa is going to get the message is to stop their influx of money,cancel your membership & give them the reason why.I also can't see why anyone would join copa to pay up to 30% more for hull insurance as it would have cost me when I first asked for a quote.Last time I asked for a quote they replied with a 'we'll get back to you before your next renewal' - 2 renewals ago.

I cancelled my membership 2 weeks ago & asked for a refund - they only give refunds to people they don't want as I was told copa doesn't have a policy in place to refund membership dues.Keep the $50,I won't be a part of any'old boy's club' that won't include the members in their decisions(except to notify them in their rag later).

Daryl
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CpnCrunch
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by CpnCrunch »

I think the only viable way forward here is for Doug to take COPA to court and force them to reinstate his directorship. He can then resign the directorship himself afterwards if he doesn't want to stick around.
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jjbaker
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by jjbaker »

Hmmm... Looks like the Association is winning by simply sitting the issue out. Sad days in hell, I thought they'd be serving cocktails here...
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pdw
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by pdw »

Don't kid yourself both made a mistake and feelings were hurt bad.

Let it slide, nobody wins here by stirring wounds; best to try and 'let go' (on BOTH SIDES !!) otherwise 'too much' at stake. Conflict resolution thru mediation is the best option ... somone interpreting for both sides if all else fails.

People! Both sides have shown they are 'unable' in that regard, however 'most' have by now seen that it is not even a big enough deal (100 years from now it won't matter) ... not something to 'self destruct' a long-standing organization over.
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floatplaneflyer
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by floatplaneflyer »

The organization is self destructing all on its own. COPA terminated one of the most knowledgeable directors, totally committed to improving general aviation in Canada when they couldn't admit they made a huge mistake with the insurance program and Psutka wanted headlines instead of a workable solution with Porter Airlines for general aviation access to Toronto City Center Airport.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by CFR »

The best way to effect change in an organization like this is to get involved at your local level and if you feel strongly enough run for director. Frankly I suspect most positions run unopposed and simply doing a good speech for change prior to the vote will get you in.
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floatplaneflyer
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by floatplaneflyer »

I would run for a directors' position, but they won't allow any vocal or opinionated directors from the States that know and understand Chicago back room political assassination strategy....
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by AirFrame »

jjbaker wrote:Hmmm... Looks like the Association is winning by simply sitting the issue out.
Which is pretty much what I suggested two months ago in this thread, if the board wanted this to go away they should just shut up about it and ignore any and all correspondence on the subject. It seems to be working.

I don't like the issue being left open like this and unresolved, especially when there appears to be some scent of scandal here. But I think any sane person would have to agree after reading this thread that [it's not going to go anywhere*].

* Edit: A better choice of words here may be "not enough members care about the issue strongly enough for it to go anywhere."
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Last edited by AirFrame on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jjbaker
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by jjbaker »

I respectfully agree... COPA needs lemmings to function while pulling stunts like this and get away with it.

Fortunately:

Image
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H Christensen
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by H Christensen »

Changes to the COPA insurance program and the appearance of some kissing and
making-up at Billy Bishop. I am not assuming cause and effect, simply
observing that they are interesting developments, what?
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by AirFrame »

So what's the big deal about changing underwriters on the insurance program? AIG is now offering policies in Canada, and they weren't last time the contracts were all negotiated. Am I missing something? If so, please elaborate.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by Docav8or »

Kawartha Lakes Flying Club (Lindsay) COPA Flight 101 minutes November 6, 2013


Guest speaker, and current Chairman of COPA, Paul Hayes was introduced and a brief description of his lengthy 60 year aviation career was given by Flavelle Barrett. ...
Kerstin Kelly, along with 5 outside, non club member visitors,... requested the opportunity to address our guest speaker on the subject of Doug Ronan’s dismissal as a COPA director. ...Paul Hayes had indicated to the Executive prior to the meeting that full details of this issue had been conveyed by Paul directly to all COPA members and he was not prepared to discuss this publicly any further, particularly in this open forum. From COPA’s perspective the issue is closed. Limited further discussion on this issue occurred followed by a motion by Bill Fry and seconded by Al Darling to adjourn the meeting at 21:19hrs. Carried.

Jim Baldwin- Sec.

Kerstin's reply to the club:

As a founding member of Copa 101, and a Silver Copa family member, at a COPA meeting, with the Chairman of COPA present, I believe it was a totally appropriate time to ask for information about a COPA issue affecting our COPA director. The question was asked politely and respectfully and was clearly a request for information and clarification of a topic our members have not understood. This was made exceedingly clear by the show of hands indicating that the vast majority of members present at the meeting were in Favour of having the question asked and answered.

Why our elected local Director was thrown out and the method of his removal, should be of interest to members of this club and to all COPA members. If they are conscientious, moral and ethical, I would think they want to belong to an association that operates above board in a transparent, responsible and accountable manner. They should be willing and able to explain their actions and decisions to their members as well as clarify and answer any questions of its members. This is a free and democratic society and the organization should be based on democratic rules of conduct including free speech. COPA and our club must be based on the same values.

Rather than hear partial answers second and third hand, I wanted to hear what happened and why, directly from the parties involved. In my opinion, that would be the best way to learn the truth. If Paul Hayes did not want to answer the questions, he could have said so to me. He did appear to be starting to answer me before Flavelle Barrett, the COPA 101 President, rudely interrupted. Paul did not need to hide behind Flavelle. My question was clearly asking for Paul's side of the story. It should have been an easy one to answer for him, if there was no wrong doing on his part nor on the part of the COPA board.

I can assure you that COPA has not been seeming to be acting in good faith , nor in the members best interests. The fact that it refuses to answer any questions about the subject is further proof of the total mishandling of the issues and the slimy business practices it has apparently undertaken.

Paul Hayes, in all good conscience was morally and ethically obligated to answer my simple and direct question and, in no uncertain terms, did Flavelle have any right to prevent me from asking the question. He was 100 percent out of line and in complete conflict with his position as a President representing the rightful club members and their interests. His actions suggest that he acts as if thinks he owns the club and that we work for him. A president of a social club is elected there at the pleasure of its members and is responsible to its members and their interests. His behavior Wednesday night was in clear violation of those interests, and, if the executive of our club continues to act in such an autocratic manner, will surely doom our club to failure.

The executive of a club is not there to do all the thinking and decision making for the members and have meetings just to report ad nausem on those decisions and tell us what we need to do and how we need to think, behave and vote.

I strongly encourage each member to speak to Doug Ronan directly to ask him about his side of the situation as well as to ask COPA to explain their actions. I had suggested this to Flavelle and clearly he chose not to get himself informed or involved enough to get even the most basic of facts by talking to the characters involved in the situation.

Doug is really approachable and easy to talk to and is more than willing to discuss the facts. His number is 705-327-4730 and his email is doug@dougronan.com. He would welcome your call anytime. He is extremely informed about aviation in the country, about insurance matters, about the Toronto Island issues, and knows the parties involved personally. Don't be afraid to ask him to explain any of the issues you do not understand. Doug has been involved in Aviation his whole working life, is extremely connected, is bright and informed. He worked diligently to help save the Lindsay Airport, and was the one person who got us our COPA 101 status back. He has attended all our fly- ins and was the one who handed us our COPA 101 certificate and is in the center of our photo of that event. Doug is extremely passionate about aviation and is a great guy to know if you ever need help with anything. He does speak his mind if he believes there is an issue which is being mishandled and therefore not everyone loves him, which is something I can relate to. You may as well as look on the AVCANADA forum about Doug to get a bit of the COPA side of the issue, as they have been incredibly secretive and refuse to answer any of the emails, or questions asked by the members directly.

The minutes of the meeting resonate of having been dictated by Flavelle( I presume). All the guests were COPA members and potential club members and had been out numerous times to support saving the Airport. They are all well known in the aviation world. At anytime they would have been welcome members or guests of our club! Your description of them was totally rude, and uncalled for. The esteemed guests are from some powerful and influential circles and are well informed about COPA , the insurance industry , Toronto Island issues and know far more about what's going on than any of the members of our club. All were entirely polite, respectful, and entitled to be at a COPA event. I am disappointed that you would write about our guests in such a disrespectful manner.

Respectfully yours,

Please Note: Doug did not speak at the meeting, nor did he organize any guests, nor comments , questions or have anything to do with the above letter. Believe it or not, there are COPA members who pay attention, expect transparency of action and accountability of its leadership, and will speak up if they feel something smells.
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Last edited by Docav8or on Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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