doug ronan removed as director from copa

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spafloats
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by spafloats »

I was an attendee of the Kawartha Lakes Flying Club General meeting under the "interested parties" wording of the "Notice of General membership meeting Wednesday November 6, 2013" that was forwarded to me. As a member of COPA since 1975 (according to my COPA 2014 membership card) and President of COPA Flight 110, I humbly suggest that I meet the qualications of an "interested party".

Contained In the Minutes of the meeting distributed by Jim Baldwin, Secretary of the Kawartha Lakes Flying Club (Lindsay) COPA Flight 101 wrote " Kerstin Kelly, along with 5 outside, non club member visitors, including Doug Ronan requested the opportunity to address the guest speaker on the subject of Doug Ronan`s dismissal as a COPA director". This is misleading at the very least in the wording of these Minutes, as it would suggest that Doug Ronan requested to speak, which he did not. It would also suggest that Kerstin Kelly was the only identified speaker, when I stood and very clearly identified myself and my position as President of COPA Flight 110 when I followed Kerstin Kelly in addressing the meeting and Paul Hayes.

Let it be clear, COPA Chair Paul Hayes was politely asked by myself to not only answeer questions about Doug Ronan`s dismissal as a COPA Director, but also the revoking of his COPA membership and elaboration on the reasons for the Board action. Unfortunately Chair Hayes remained silent.

No forum has been presented since Doug Ronan was effectively thrown off the COPA "bus" for COPA members who were disenfranchised in the removal of Doug Ronan, and none is scheduled that I have been made aware.

I would suggest that Paul Hayes conduct is both high handed and anti-democratic from a Board Chair who has served his Queen and Country in, amongst other reasons, the defense of democracy.

Mr. Hayes is no longer Brigadier General Paul Hayes. He is the Chairman of the Board of a not-for-profit association of members that has a President who serves at the pleasure of the Board that is made up of elected Board members from each region of the country elected by members in those regions. Following Doug Ronan`s removal, no by-election has be scheduled, nor has a replacement been appointed. The seat on the Board has just been left vacant...a highly undemocratic state of affairs.

From the Minutes of the Kawartha Lakes Flying Club November 6, 2013 meeting "From COPA`s perspective the issue is closed."

Maybe not!

Paul Armstrong
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by Taiser »

Glad there is still some pressure being applied to this issue...
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by jjbaker »

To me it looks as if sitting the problem out is the chosen way.

The King is not prepared to speak with the peasants, hence the peasants must shut up.

The stifling of discussions is really often the only way to prevent such peasant mutinies.

How fun would it be to be the fly on the wall at one of these esteemed board clown meetings...
...they must be slapping each other silly for allowing this shame to come out.

Its really unbelievable and its a huge shame.

What in the world happened to serving on a board of directors when you have to become such an arrogant schmuck?
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by ScreaminBanshee »

Hello everyone,

I have read this thread in its entirety because I too have issues with COPA. First off, I would like to comment to the people who have given up their memberships. I too have struggled with whether I want to keep my membership going especially when I feel I get very little out of it. I have decided to stay a member for the following reasons. If everyone who feels there needs to be change in this organization leaves, then all there will be left is sheep that will follow COPA to its destruction. If we want change, we need to be involved because that is the best place to be to incite it. Quitting is the easy way out and will leave our country ultimately with no true voice. AOPA and EAA as much as I would like them to be involved in our interests, they are not.

Canada has a rich aviation heritage and we truly do enjoy some great things. Sure nothing is perfect but the ties to aircraft in this country are strong and deep and we must keep it this way. One visit to Tom Hendricks’ museum will show you that. Even shows like Ice Pilots (As ridiculous as it can be at times) show that in Canada there is still an age of aviation that is surviving, living history. Unfortunately, our living history is threatened all the time. Airport closures, opposition to aviation infrastructure, high fuel prices, declining membership etc. all threaten this. There is only one group in Canada who tries (Albeit not as well as we like) to tackle these issues and that is COPA.

We all have issues with the way COPA is run and this is by far not a pro-COPA comment. My biggest worry is the people who are passionate about aviation getting frustrated by bureaucracy and leaving. Typically the most passionate people are younger and this is a generation we can’t afford to lose. A better plan of approach is to get MORE involved. Get your name out there. Get people to recognize who you are. By demonstrating your passion and your integrity people will follow what you have to say. Just like Doug has obviously done. Of course this is way harder but the people who TRULY care will do it. Our only other option is to start a new group completely from scratch and I don’t think there is anyone who thinks that will be easier than just getting involved with COPA more and changing from the inside.

I, for one, get too passionate. I have sent some letters and wrote abrasive comments when I should have kept myself in check. It is easy to do. I have a hard time with long time COPA members who stand up and speak against new private aviation development while guys like Doug are thrown aside. I have trouble with a newspaper that has very little to offer for the price tag (The only articles I find interesting are the enforcement section). I have trouble with COPA not seeming to listen to members.

I too have gotten the “we need more young blood” speech right after I heard the most rigid, self-centred, closed minded comments. It turned me off right away. They people I have talked to want young blood as long as they are malleable and conform to old ideas.

Personally, I think COPA’s biggest issue (And ours if we want change) is that they fail to retain young pilots (Under 30 years old). COPA has almost nothing to offer the younger generation. Most young pilots are commercial pilots. They can’t afford to fly recreationally. They fly for a living. When they get a cheap newspaper that’s cover article is about doing a “long cross country” of 300nm they laugh right at it. How can an organization claim to be in touch with the younger generation when they claim a long cross country is 300nm and some of these young pilots are flying 4000nm cross countries for work. How do you bridge the gap between people who fly for a living and can’t afford to recreationally fly and the recreational fliers? I continue to see comments about the need to inject young blood into flying organizations, but the fact seems to be that though this need exists, it does not seem to have become an actuality. I am a 26 year old private pilot. My wife is a 25 year old commercial pilot with an ATPL. Between the two of us we know over 100 pilots under 30 year old who are out there, but not one of them that I personally know, is involved in a flying organization chapter of any sort that I am aware of, except for myself.

So why are none of these young pilots in clubs? Our first problem with injecting young blood into the organization is that no outsiders know where they are or anything about them. You may have a fly in breakfast or something hosted by your chapter, but the only people that hear about it are other chapters. This lack of outreach has a big impact. When I was living in my home town I was interested in joining a chapter or club. I found the phone number for the president of the local COPA chapter. I called him up and he briefly told me there was a meeting the first Tuesday of every month at the Air Force Association building. He did not sound excited or inviting and so when it got closer to the date, I forgot all about it. I like to think that I might have ended up at that meeting if I was given an enthusiastic invitation, and if my contact information was received with a subsequent phone call a few days ahead of time to remind me about the meeting, plus a reaffirmation that they would want me there. I think there is a good chance I would have been there. But the root of the problem is that everybody who wants to join a club has to first WANT to join and then has to go through the process of finding that club. There are programs all over Canada that are full of young people who fly or want to fly. Namely, programs like the Royal Canadian Air Cadets (probably has the most successful pilot licensing program for teens in the world) and many flight college programs across the country. How many chapters have ever approached the leaders of these programs and spoken to the youth and young adults about their organization? I think that number is probably less than 1%. In reality, you are only going to get chapter growth from the flight college programs, but it is good to instill the seeds early into the teen programs as well. There are literally thousands of 20 year olds learning to fly across the US and Canada right now, who are in commercial college based flight programs. Do you think this next generation who has clearly demonstrated their passion for flying may want to be involved in a program full of like-minded individuals? I would like to believe that there is a good chance. It therefore would be great if a couple of proactive members actually came and gave a presentation for what COPA is all about. Don’t make the young pilots find the Chapter; show them where it is.

When I relocated to my current city, I joined a COPA Chapter. When I asked my wife if she wanted to come to one of the meetings with me, she crinkled up here nose and said, “I don’t want to go to an old boys club and talk to a bunch of crusty old guys. Half of them are so out of touch with the type of flying I do, yet try to argue with me when I try to talk to them about the stuff I do every day at my job.” I am paraphrasing a bit but you get the point. The Chapter has ZERO to offer her. What can we do to offer the younger generation value to their membership? First of all, we need to have an open mind. New members have new opinions and the students in these flight programs are highly trained in Air Law. Maybe members have never heard of what they are talking about but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true. I have heard of other chapters reducing the rate for younger than 30 year olds to $10. That is beside the point. To them it is still a wasted $10. Before we cut our membership rates, why don’t we increase our Chapter membership value? For example, when I first went to my new Chapters meeting, I had to go out of MY way to talk to people and meet acquaintances. If I didn’t make that move, I would have sat in the corner and not talked to anyone all night. I am a very outgoing guy so this was easy for me, but may not be as easy for the next guy. It is easy to add value to a new membership; you need to make new members feel welcome. I mean really welcome. Don’t just say, “Hi” and walk away. Talk to them; ask them about their flying experience, what they are flying now, and what they want to fly. I understand that with younger people, it may be hard to find engaging topics due to the age gap but they are there because they like airplanes! And you like airplanes too, so you have a whole breadth of topics to talk about now.
I would go as far as to say that new members need to be assigned a flying veteran member as a mentor. A one on one contact they can ask questions to, a mentor who will call them to remind them to come, a mentor who will call them midweek and say, “I’m going for a spin, you want to jump in?” Don’t split fuel costs or anything for these new members. You were going flying anyway so take them for the trip. If they offer to pay for some gas, so be it. A young person will have a lot of expenses between tuition payments and higher than ever living costs. You don’t want them to say they turn down a ride because they can’t afford it. One day they will be able to afford it and I would bet my bottom dollar, they will pay it forward to the next generation. Do you think a new member who gets to tag along with a member who is going flying anyway, getting a couple of free flights a month, would see some value in membership? I sure do. If you don’t have a plane but you have a project, maybe you can invite them over and show them what a cleco is and how to buck rivets. It takes very little effort on the Chapter members to make the new members feel appreciated. Plus an extra set of hands is sometimes great to have.
I find it amazing that pilots who plan every aspect of a flight just want new pilots to join their Chapters and wonder why they aren’t. We need to approach this recruitment like we would build an airplane. You don’t just start throwing plane like pieces together and hope it flies. No, you need to sit down and think about what you want that plane to do. Once you establish that, you sharpen your pencil and you start to design the plane and get a solid plan together. Once the plan is on paper and everything checks out, you start to implement your design, ordering the tools and material you need to do the job properly. You start to assemble your plan and check the quality as you go, while learning from mistakes. So I guess I really am challenging everyone to start putting a plan together. Spread the word of what ideas are working and what ideas aren’t. I feel that a lot of members talk about wanting younger members but not many are actually doing something. Maybe we all need to put our heads together and brainstorm on how we can make improvements and get more young people involved.

Once the young people are involved they are the ones who will drive the change to turn COPA into a proactive organisation.

Sorry this went a bit long. It kind turned into a rant. Thanks for reading if you made it this far. All I want is a healthy GA movement.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by I_Drive_Planes »

Spot on ScreaminBanshee. COPA and AOPA constantly lament the greying of general aviation and the decline of flying clubs but can't seem to come up with any better excuse than "young people like computers and cell phones too much to have time for flying!" or "the economy!"
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by av8rphil »

ScreaminBanshee wrote:Hello everyone,

I have read this thread in its entirety because I too have issues with COPA. First off, I would like to comment to the people who have given up their memberships. I too have struggled with whether I want to keep my membership going especially when I feel I get very little out of it. I have decided to stay a member for the following reasons. If everyone who feels there needs to be change in this organization leaves, then all there will be left is sheep that will follow COPA to its destruction. If we want change, we need to be involved because that is the best place to be to incite it. Quitting is the easy way out and will leave our country ultimately with no true voice. AOPA and EAA as much as I would like them to be involved in our interests, they are not.

Canada has a rich aviation heritage and we truly do enjoy some great things. Sure nothing is perfect but the ties to aircraft in this country are strong and deep and we must keep it this way. One visit to Tom Hendricks’ museum will show you that. Even shows like Ice Pilots (As ridiculous as it can be at times) show that in Canada there is still an age of aviation that is surviving, living history. Unfortunately, our living history is threatened all the time. Airport closures, opposition to aviation infrastructure, high fuel prices, declining membership etc. all threaten this. There is only one group in Canada who tries (Albeit not as well as we like) to tackle these issues and that is COPA.

We all have issues with the way COPA is run and this is by far not a pro-COPA comment. My biggest worry is the people who are passionate about aviation getting frustrated by bureaucracy and leaving. Typically the most passionate people are younger and this is a generation we can’t afford to lose. A better plan of approach is to get MORE involved. Get your name out there. Get people to recognize who you are. By demonstrating your passion and your integrity people will follow what you have to say. Just like Doug has obviously done. Of course this is way harder but the people who TRULY care will do it. Our only other option is to start a new group completely from scratch and I don’t think there is anyone who thinks that will be easier than just getting involved with COPA more and changing from the inside.

I, for one, get too passionate. I have sent some letters and wrote abrasive comments when I should have kept myself in check. It is easy to do. I have a hard time with long time COPA members who stand up and speak against new private aviation development while guys like Doug are thrown aside. I have trouble with a newspaper that has very little to offer for the price tag (The only articles I find interesting are the enforcement section). I have trouble with COPA not seeming to listen to members.

I too have gotten the “we need more young blood” speech right after I heard the most rigid, self-centred, closed minded comments. It turned me off right away. They people I have talked to want young blood as long as they are malleable and conform to old ideas.

Personally, I think COPA’s biggest issue (And ours if we want change) is that they fail to retain young pilots (Under 30 years old). COPA has almost nothing to offer the younger generation. Most young pilots are commercial pilots. They can’t afford to fly recreationally. They fly for a living. When they get a cheap newspaper that’s cover article is about doing a “long cross country” of 300nm they laugh right at it. How can an organization claim to be in touch with the younger generation when they claim a long cross country is 300nm and some of these young pilots are flying 4000nm cross countries for work. How do you bridge the gap between people who fly for a living and can’t afford to recreationally fly and the recreational fliers? I continue to see comments about the need to inject young blood into flying organizations, but the fact seems to be that though this need exists, it does not seem to have become an actuality. I am a 26 year old private pilot. My wife is a 25 year old commercial pilot with an ATPL. Between the two of us we know over 100 pilots under 30 year old who are out there, but not one of them that I personally know, is involved in a flying organization chapter of any sort that I am aware of, except for myself.

So why are none of these young pilots in clubs? Our first problem with injecting young blood into the organization is that no outsiders know where they are or anything about them. You may have a fly in breakfast or something hosted by your chapter, but the only people that hear about it are other chapters. This lack of outreach has a big impact. When I was living in my home town I was interested in joining a chapter or club. I found the phone number for the president of the local COPA chapter. I called him up and he briefly told me there was a meeting the first Tuesday of every month at the Air Force Association building. He did not sound excited or inviting and so when it got closer to the date, I forgot all about it. I like to think that I might have ended up at that meeting if I was given an enthusiastic invitation, and if my contact information was received with a subsequent phone call a few days ahead of time to remind me about the meeting, plus a reaffirmation that they would want me there. I think there is a good chance I would have been there. But the root of the problem is that everybody who wants to join a club has to first WANT to join and then has to go through the process of finding that club. There are programs all over Canada that are full of young people who fly or want to fly. Namely, programs like the Royal Canadian Air Cadets (probably has the most successful pilot licensing program for teens in the world) and many flight college programs across the country. How many chapters have ever approached the leaders of these programs and spoken to the youth and young adults about their organization? I think that number is probably less than 1%. In reality, you are only going to get chapter growth from the flight college programs, but it is good to instill the seeds early into the teen programs as well. There are literally thousands of 20 year olds learning to fly across the US and Canada right now, who are in commercial college based flight programs. Do you think this next generation who has clearly demonstrated their passion for flying may want to be involved in a program full of like-minded individuals? I would like to believe that there is a good chance. It therefore would be great if a couple of proactive members actually came and gave a presentation for what COPA is all about. Don’t make the young pilots find the Chapter; show them where it is.

When I relocated to my current city, I joined a COPA Chapter. When I asked my wife if she wanted to come to one of the meetings with me, she crinkled up here nose and said, “I don’t want to go to an old boys club and talk to a bunch of crusty old guys. Half of them are so out of touch with the type of flying I do, yet try to argue with me when I try to talk to them about the stuff I do every day at my job.” I am paraphrasing a bit but you get the point. The Chapter has ZERO to offer her. What can we do to offer the younger generation value to their membership? First of all, we need to have an open mind. New members have new opinions and the students in these flight programs are highly trained in Air Law. Maybe members have never heard of what they are talking about but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true. I have heard of other chapters reducing the rate for younger than 30 year olds to $10. That is beside the point. To them it is still a wasted $10. Before we cut our membership rates, why don’t we increase our Chapter membership value? For example, when I first went to my new Chapters meeting, I had to go out of MY way to talk to people and meet acquaintances. If I didn’t make that move, I would have sat in the corner and not talked to anyone all night. I am a very outgoing guy so this was easy for me, but may not be as easy for the next guy. It is easy to add value to a new membership; you need to make new members feel welcome. I mean really welcome. Don’t just say, “Hi” and walk away. Talk to them; ask them about their flying experience, what they are flying now, and what they want to fly. I understand that with younger people, it may be hard to find engaging topics due to the age gap but they are there because they like airplanes! And you like airplanes too, so you have a whole breadth of topics to talk about now.
I would go as far as to say that new members need to be assigned a flying veteran member as a mentor. A one on one contact they can ask questions to, a mentor who will call them to remind them to come, a mentor who will call them midweek and say, “I’m going for a spin, you want to jump in?” Don’t split fuel costs or anything for these new members. You were going flying anyway so take them for the trip. If they offer to pay for some gas, so be it. A young person will have a lot of expenses between tuition payments and higher than ever living costs. You don’t want them to say they turn down a ride because they can’t afford it. One day they will be able to afford it and I would bet my bottom dollar, they will pay it forward to the next generation. Do you think a new member who gets to tag along with a member who is going flying anyway, getting a couple of free flights a month, would see some value in membership? I sure do. If you don’t have a plane but you have a project, maybe you can invite them over and show them what a cleco is and how to buck rivets. It takes very little effort on the Chapter members to make the new members feel appreciated. Plus an extra set of hands is sometimes great to have.
I find it amazing that pilots who plan every aspect of a flight just want new pilots to join their Chapters and wonder why they aren’t. We need to approach this recruitment like we would build an airplane. You don’t just start throwing plane like pieces together and hope it flies. No, you need to sit down and think about what you want that plane to do. Once you establish that, you sharpen your pencil and you start to design the plane and get a solid plan together. Once the plan is on paper and everything checks out, you start to implement your design, ordering the tools and material you need to do the job properly. You start to assemble your plan and check the quality as you go, while learning from mistakes. So I guess I really am challenging everyone to start putting a plan together. Spread the word of what ideas are working and what ideas aren’t. I feel that a lot of members talk about wanting younger members but not many are actually doing something. Maybe we all need to put our heads together and brainstorm on how we can make improvements and get more young people involved.

Once the young people are involved they are the ones who will drive the change to turn COPA into a proactive organisation.

Sorry this went a bit long. It kind turned into a rant. Thanks for reading if you made it this far. All I want is a healthy GA movement.
Hi There, this is my first posting on this site although I have been following it since its inception. First of all let me say you are dead on with your comments. You are right COPA has done nothing positive to attract new members. As you probably can tell from my user name I am a member of COPA and a director and probably will get slapped on the wrist by some other members for responding to your post. I may be an "old boy" but young at heart. I have tried on my own to recruit younger members but found that we have no real relevance to the younger flyers. On every commercial air trip I take, I make it a point to introduce myself to the crew and invite them to come back to their flying roots. I have asked co-op students that work at our airport and given them a copy of our "magazine" and asked for their critique. Unfortunately, not much in it interests them. I have tried encouraging my former air cadets to become interested, but even the graduates of the scholarship program find COPA dull. If you would like to see a change, now is the time to do something. Ontario and Quebec are holding elections for regional directors. Why not run for a position on the board and see if you can change the attitude and minds of some of these old fogies. If I get re-elected this term I would really like to work with young blood. If you figure out who I am from my user signature, look in the COPA paper for my phone number and please give me a call.
Sincerely,
av8rphil
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Pavese
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by Pavese »

ScreaminBanshee wrote:Hello everyone,

SNIP!

So I guess I really am challenging everyone to start putting a plan together. Spread the word of what ideas are working and what ideas aren’t. I feel that a lot of members talk about wanting younger members but not many are actually doing something. Maybe we all need to put our heads together and brainstorm on how we can make improvements and get more young people involved.

Once the young people are involved they are the ones who will drive the change to turn COPA into a proactive organization.

Sorry this went a bit long. It kind turned into a rant. Thanks for reading if you made it this far. All I want is a healthy GA movement.
GREAT post SB, glad you're passionate enough to write that much!

I belong to two aviation organizations that have the same aging issue and have been one of the youngest members for a number of years but we haven't filled in anyone below and I don't like where that's leading. The key to renewal and getting more and younger members involved is to bring in the critical mass of younger members and encourage them to take the organizations in their "new" direction. The older crowd might not find that so comfortable but that's going to be part of the evolution or the group will wither away. There has to be renewal! I have seen that be stifled in another group, a fresh face came in and did a great job with an event with bigger plans for the next time but was discouraged by the old guard because it was change and as a result backed away for other things. The aviating community cannot afford to let that happen!

The idea to pair a younger member with a more experienced (see how I didn't say older LOL!) member is great, it's crazy but I find it hard to find non-flying friends to go flying on a moments notice but if you have a "buddy" that understands and is motivated then that's a win for both. Especially if you pick up the tab because younger budgets don't always have loose cash.

BTW, membership cost is NOT a make or break issue. One of the orgs. I belong to doesn't charge chapter dues while the other has no problem even from members that show up quite infrequently but believe in the chapter. OK, here's an idea on dues, offer your younger members or perhaps your members who are not yet pilots a freebie but one of the rites of passage into pilothood (and one they will have incentive to participate in to recognize their accomplishment) is to become a paying member. It's not so much about affordability as it is recognition and taking on more responsibility. You could even have a short ceremony! Think of the motivation for younger members to "join the club".

I don't have answers for how to get the critical mass through the door but welcoming those that arrive and involving them in the process is what has to happen. Perhaps it's starting a Friday after work COPA chapter pub meet or some sort of regular (regularity is key!) social gathering where it's not just about the old boys club (did I say that???). How about getting the offspring of the "old fogeys" involved, there have to be some who are interested and if they can network with the offspring of others but on their own terms then they don't have to hang around with their parents.

Getting younger, what about some flight sim competitions? How long can they fly "under the hood" and maintain control or sim spot landings or???? The old guard could help by coaching/instructing the younger crowd. Invite the Air Cadets to come join in and take on the licensed pilots. Make it a BBQ event.

Now, on to getting new (young or old) members involved in running the chapter. I have seen the typical organization be one or maybe two people that do everything and the rest go along for the ride. That's a recipe for burn out and a buzz kill for anyone that might be interested in contributing because they know they'll be next in line and you know what happens next, right? Don't know how to address that but there are enough smart individuals here that can toss out good, constructive ideas, right? As soon as some good answers come in I think they can be tried out quickly, right?

OK, I've hogged the soap box long enough, who's next?

D 8)
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by Quinny »

My wife and I joined our local (at the time) Flying Club. We are in our thirties, my wife is a pilot and I am a tag along enthusiast. The club introduced us at our first meeting and we were made to feel very welcome. We got involved with events, COPA for kids and had a fantastic time. My wife flew a friends aircraft for the COPA for kids and I worked on the ground. There is an awful lot of great things to do and get involved in. It was hard to go to some of the meetings, it seemed like a lot of regurgitated codswallop and was pretty tedious. On the other hand, we made the effort to go and ended up meeting some fantastic people and had a lot of fun.
At the end of the day, bringing in younger blood will take effort on both sides. Everyone will need to make an effort.
Whilst sometimes I would have rather have shot myself in the face than go and listen to the same crap over and over and over, I made the effort and ended up being grateful for the time we spent there. We sure miss our old flying club now.
Quinny
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by Schooner69A »

And we miss the both of you... The coffee pot is always on.

John
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by 20102m2 »

I like COPA.
Been a member since 1976.
I know the President and have great respect for his knowledge and efforts, as do industry peers and government officials.
He has done more than any other representative to present GA as a serious lobby with important issues for Canada's well being.
The COPA staff is terrific, I read the newspaper cover to cover.
The insurance program and benefits work well.
Our local COPA Flight is well organized and satisfies the Four Fs- Flying- Friendship- Fun-Food!
I have known most Board members for a long time and appreciate their efforts.
This thread suffers from LMF and the posters negative to COPA should either join and get involved or be quiet because if you do not belong it is not your business.
COPA is a great organization and this thread more represents the gutter level discussions forum that for some reason AVCanada allows, but is not fair on a dedicated group of people trying their best.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by photofly »

posters negative to COPA should either join and get involved or be quiet because if you do not belong it is not your business.
Well, no, not really. If COPA claims to represent the GA lobby, then it claims to represent even those who aren't members.

Can't have it both ways.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by ScreaminBanshee »

Maybe a mod should turn this into its own thread since it has taken a departure….
av8rphil wrote: Hi There, this is my first posting on this site although I have been following it since its inception. First of all let me say you are dead on with your comments. You are right COPA has done nothing positive to attract new members. As you probably can tell from my user name I am a member of COPA and a director and probably will get slapped on the wrist by some other members for responding to your post. I may be an "old boy" but young at heart. I have tried on my own to recruit younger members but found that we have no real relevance to the younger flyers. On every commercial air trip I take, I make it a point to introduce myself to the crew and invite them to come back to their flying roots. I have asked co-op students that work at our airport and given them a copy of our "magazine" and asked for their critique. Unfortunately, not much in it interests them. I have tried encouraging my former air cadets to become interested, but even the graduates of the scholarship program find COPA dull. If you would like to see a change, now is the time to do something. Ontario and Quebec are holding elections for regional directors. Why not run for a position on the board and see if you can change the attitude and minds of some of these old fogies. If I get re-elected this term I would really like to work with young blood. If you figure out who I am from my user signature, look in the COPA paper for my phone number and please give me a call.
Sincerely,
av8rphil
Hi Phil,
Thanks for the offer to run but I am outside those territories.
I actually have sent you a letter in the past but it was to a few people at once. Perhaps I will send you a more personalized one shortly. It sounds like you have done than the majority of COPA people I have met. I think a big issue too is there could be one great chapter and one bad chapter. There is no standardized approach. Even if there was it might not work. As you said you were involved with cadets, you get someone who has been in a an organization for 6-7 years, has it all figured out, had friends that they were with for those 6 years, and then they go to a COPA meeting where nothing is familiar and no one is reaching out. It’s one of those things that once you have the young base in place, there is familiarity for the next crop. But until then, how do we get the first group in and retain them?

I think the flight SIM idea that Paseve had is, in no offense, a dead idea. I have seen it tried on many occasions and always in the end there is a computer collecting dust. Flight simulator is something someone can do at home and realize what we all have. Flying computer sim is not flying.

We need to get the young people who already have their license. Air Cadets turns out roughly 320 glider pilots a year and 250 private licenses. This is a group that is ripe for the picking. The problem is that most can’t afford to fly after they get their license. They are still very much interested in flying. This is where I think the mentorship pair up would be ideal. Get them flying. All these young pilots have one thing in common, they like flying. They don’t like going to a meeting and listening to the old guys. Perhaps there needs to be a shift, weather permitting, where COPA meetings are based around a fly out or something. Heck I think I would even like that better. Go flying for a couple hours then comeback and BS a bit. Load the non-owner members into the back seats so they can come too.

There is also another group of young pilots which are the young professional pilot which makes up the majority of young pilots younger than 30. These pilots barely make enough money to pay rent, pay tuition loans, and pay for groceries while they work the rat race trying to get on top. These guys fly and fly often, which is part of the problem because they can’t make it to regularly scheduled events which means they don’t develop relationships. They fly 500-800 hours a year but have no extra money to fly for fun no extra patience for an “older” member who is giving them “advice” on how to do this or that even though they have twice the flying experience. My wife went flying with a guy who is older and was giving her a hard time about how late she was waiting to slow down on approach and how tight of a circuit she was flying, etc. I think this is a huge turn off for the younger guys who fly for a living. I think the older crowd need to realise what these younger pilots have to offer as far as experience. Just because they are young doesn’t mean they are inexperienced. That being said, some are.

Perhaps instead of telling young people to join COPA and what it does why don’t we ask them what it would have to look like for them to want to join?
20102m2 wrote:I like COPA.
Been a member since 1976.
I know the President and have great respect for his knowledge and efforts, as do industry peers and government officials.
He has done more than any other representative to present GA as a serious lobby with important issues for Canada's well being.
The COPA staff is terrific, I read the newspaper cover to cover.
The insurance program and benefits work well.
Our local COPA Flight is well organized and satisfies the Four Fs- Flying- Friendship- Fun-Food!
I have known most Board members for a long time and appreciate their efforts.
This thread suffers from LMF and the posters negative to COPA should either join and get involved or be quiet because if you do not belong it is not your business.
COPA is a great organization and this thread more represents the gutter level discussions forum that for some reason AVCanada allows, but is not fair on a dedicated group of people trying their best.
Well I want to be diplomatic here but if you have been a member since 1976 that makes you around 60 and that makes you one of the “older guys” that the younger generation has trouble relating to. So if you think everything about COPA is all well and great then keep on trucking, all the power to you. Personally I think that an aging membership population and low retention of young members is going to kill the organization. Obviously I am trying to get involved but you can’t rock the boat too much either when you are young at a chapter. However, I do agree with you that COPA has done more than any other lobbying group in Canada.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by Pavese »

photofly wrote:
posters negative to COPA should either join and get involved or be quiet because if you do not belong it is not your business.
Well, no, not really. If COPA claims to represent the GA lobby, then it claims to represent even those who aren't members.

Can't have it both ways.
Either you want to join in and be part of creating and influencing the solution or you can take what you get by standing on the sidelines and doing nothing. Same choice you're offered by the COP by the way. Your choice but don't expect your concerns to be addressed without coming into the room and taking part.

COPA or COP or AOPA or EAA or or ALPA or all the alphabets are there to serve their members first, if participating doesn't suit you then you have some grown up decisions to make.

D 8)

P.S. ScreaminBanshee, I believe you're right, this is turning into a constructive thread that could stand on its own:
ScreaminBanshee wrote: Maybe a mod should turn this into its own thread since it has taken a departure….
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Last edited by Pavese on Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
H Christensen
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by H Christensen »

Liking Kevin Psutka or the COPA people or how things are makes an earlier poster's point that too many COPA members are okay with not knowing and not knowing they're not knowing about the events that lead to Doug Ronan's expulsion from the board; still a hot issue with a large number of people in his Southern Ontario territory and for his other supporters across the country.
The COPA Chair who honchoed the revocation of Ronan's membership, thus his ability to sit on the board of directors, was way out of line. Perhaps that's what prompted his recent decision to resign.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by kamikaze »

Great post from SB, though it mostly leads my thoughts in a different direction than most of you ...

If you accept that COPA is primarily for private flyers (The "Pilots") and private aircraft owners (The "Owners"), then there is an implied limit on the demographics you're going to appeal to. As SB points out, those that get in young are getting into it for a career, and COPA simply won't be for them. And maybe, just maybe, that's OK, and accepting this would do some good.

COPA, like much of our society, is adapting to the changing demographics as the boomers go "through the system". Private flying is unlikely to ever be for the really young, at least not for the foreseeable future. It's costly and time intensive. Most people do the whole grow up, go to school, start a career, start a family, and then maybe find time and money to fly privately. You're unlikely to ever get tot his part before your thirties, and if someone manages to do so, they're the exception, not the rule.

Only two solutions to this: Make flying cheaper and less time intensive, or accept that you'll never attract the really young by your very nature, and instead focus more on attracting MORE of the *right* demographic, say people in their thirties.

Part 23 revisions may eventually help with the cost issue, but it'll be years (10+) before anything concrete happens and is reflected in the market in a way that will benefit bringing in new people.

Focusing on attracting new people from a more realistic demographic could be done now, and could potentially prove far more helpful ...

I'm 39, started at 33 ... private flying only, and owner. What keeps me from flying as much as I'd like? 2 young kids ... nothing wrong with that of course, but it's not anything COPA could ever change ... of course I started my family later than average :)
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by jjbaker »

H Christensen wrote:Liking Kevin Psutka or the COPA people or how things are makes an earlier poster's point that too many COPA members are okay with not knowing and not knowing they're not knowing about the events that lead to Doug Ronan's expulsion from the board; still a hot issue with a large number of people in his Southern Ontario territory and for his other supporters across the country.
The COPA Chair who honchoed the revocation of Ronan's membership, thus his ability to sit on the board of directors, was way out of line. Perhaps that's what prompted his recent decision to resign.
After reading some of the above comments on how wonderful they are, I wondered if there should be more KOOLaid trucks northbound, inventory must be getting low... :lol:

Image

Probably still a hot issue for only a handful of people who dare to speak up and speak their minds.
That's those who get branded aviation enemy #1 for criticizing and refusing to fund these clowns and told to either pay up and shut up or just shut up... The member really has no louder voice than the non member, you either go with the play, or you don't belong to the club... :rolleyes:

Old age and arrogance, along with political correctness and little power schmoozy games will kill this cat. The question isn't if this will happen, the question is when. The problem seems that the older guys may not want to rock the boat too hard for fear of conflict, while the younger guys get violently and harshly prevented from reaching the right positions.

Fact is: Members love not knowing things, it's what keeps the lid on most things that would make more than 75% of the membership jump ship, if it ever came out. Fix: Take the money and salaries/ benefits out in one swoop and all the idiot games stop on the spot.

:prayer: $0.02
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by Pavese »

That post didn't do much for your credibility Jason.

BTW, this is Jason's pulpit:

http://jasonjamesbaker.wordpress.com/


D 8)
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photofly
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by photofly »

I don't know: and I rather love some of the stuff on his website. I hope Jason doesn't mind me quoting this particularly delicious titbit:
Somehow, over the last couple of decades, associations have managed to portray themselves as the only form of passionate expression about aviation. Cheap marketing still works and emotion is a good tool to close the sale. Creating urgency and putting the pressure on sells a TON of memberships every year. Sheep always follow.

“If you love aviation/ to fly/ to work in aviation/ to land on water/ to speak with fellow pilots, you owe it to yourself to join our cause! If you don’t join/ renew/ up your membership/ sign up with our special double super program, you will surely see aviation’s demise within the next few years!”

Only a total Putz ridden by monumental idiocy would knowingly do something to hurt what they love, right? Hence – the majority of members join, rejoin, renew, renew early or sign up for lifetime memberships; and generally do as they are told to preserve their “freedom to fly”. The majority of members don’t have many questions about how membership dollars are spent, how effective their associations really are, how small or big their association is and how many of their fellow members they could actually reach if they needed help and push came to shove.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by BGH »

The original thread was about the way that Ronan was removed from the copa board.Somewhere in the back pages I wrote about my unhappiness about this to both psutka & hayes & the replies from both pissed me off enough to cancel my membership with a full year left & they don't give refunds.
For the record I've owned & flown my own cessna 185 since I was 23 years old & I'm going to be 54 in august,copa hasn't done very much to help me & their insurance coverage sure wasn't cheaper to me.If the upper eschelon is only going to shovel crap in my direction when I ask for proper answers then I'm out;I work hard enough for my money & hate wasting it on useless expenses such as copa membership.

I know who jason is & he ain't lying.

Daryl
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by Pavese »

photofly wrote:I don't know: and I rather love some of the stuff on his website. I hope Jason doesn't mind me quoting this particularly delicious titbit:

SNIP!
It's like I said before, stand on the sidelines and throw rocks or get engaged and make changes, if you don't like the status quo then put your hand up and take the lead.

Are you running for a COPA director's position (or director of any other organization?) so you can do something? Local chapter executive? You'd be surprised with the view from behind the reins.

D 8)
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