doug ronan removed as director from copa

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jjbaker
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by jjbaker »

CpnCrunch wrote:I'm pretty sure that is NOT the case. There is no mention on the proxy form about "whoever usually votes on your behalf", and I'm not aware of that being normal procedure at AGMs. As far as I am aware, they simply collect the votes of the people attending the AGM plus the people who have given written proxies. The members who don't bother turning up or giving their proxy are simply not counted.
Alright. Then the difference between not voting and not sending your proxy in is effectively NOT ever considered a "sign" or "sending a message". Send the prepared proxy and effectively say yes to whatever your membership representative decide for you or don't send your proxy in and don't get counted. Unless the membership raises a counter proxy or appears in quorum quantity at the meeting to make a point - the whole show is pretty senseless. I'm willing to learn if I am completely wrong.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by CFR »

Most issues that require a vote must be published in advance. (I'm not certain if or what can be raised from the floor of the AGM). In my opinion a specific proxy voting form listing the proposals, explaining the rationale behind them and potentially what the board recommends, should be sent out to each member (could be included in the COPA newsletter) with a space for a YES/NO for each proposal. Open proxies should be a thing of the past.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by AirFrame »

The COPA bylaws, available on the COPA website, should spell out how proxies work.

The reality, as someone pointed out, is that the majority of members don't send them in, and those that do generally support the status quo. Generating momentum sufficient to overthrow the board at an AGM is next to impossible without some major international incident.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by jjbaker »

So, if I get this correctly, the tail is wagging with the dog and due to legal threats and general blustery as well as a obviously strongly developed desire to do nothing, say nothing, hear nothing and know nothing, nothing is going to come from all this. Maybe its time to stop referring to such mini kingdoms as "member driven" organizations.

Time to start the Feel Good Kumbaya Aviation Choir. Membership should be free. No boards or bylaws or $200K presidents.
Just sing wherever you are. You'll always know you're part of a member driven organization that does a lot for General Aviation.
Benefit: Your vote doesn't count, really - but you're always free to ask for a refund...

:lol:
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CpnCrunch
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by CpnCrunch »

CFR wrote:Most issues that require a vote must be published in advance. (I'm not certain if or what can be raised from the floor of the AGM). In my opinion a specific proxy voting form listing the proposals, explaining the rationale behind them and potentially what the board recommends, should be sent out to each member (could be included in the COPA newsletter) with a space for a YES/NO for each proposal. Open proxies should be a thing of the past.
Nothing in the bylaws says you need to give notice, as far as I can see. So any member can bring up any proposal at the AGM, as far as I can tell.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by AirFrame »

Corollary: Any executive or board member can bring up any proposal at the AGM as well.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by crazy_aviator »

I would propose that they limit the presidents salary to no more than $120,000.00 otherwise, kick his overpaid ass out of there !!!
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by Taiser »

crazy_aviator wrote:I would propose that they limit the presidents salary to no more than $120,000.00 otherwise, kick his overpaid ass out of there !!!
Agreed! The current salary is INSANE!!! 100k tops is what that job should pay + expenses.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by jjbaker »

But... but... but... some will say: "Professional leadership demands professional salary!"

I am sure Mr. President has a contract (if the association is lucky, the current BOD knows whats involved with a discharge) and getting him removed from office involuntarily would come at some tremendous expense.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by PilotDAR »

and getting him removed from office involuntarily would come at some tremendous expense
Ah... Isn't the procedure just to return his most recent membership payment, declare him ineligible, and send him on his way?
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by jjbaker »

PilotDAR wrote:
and getting him removed from office involuntarily would come at some tremendous expense
Ah... Isn't the procedure just to return his most recent membership payment, declare him ineligible, and send him on his way?
Wouldn't that be neat? :lol:

Last time I checked though, that worked with volunteer directors, but not contractually protected superstar employees. :idea:

Gross misconduct or offenses worthy of discharge are not easy to prove and even if such things are proven, the board may still decide to retroactively approve all actions (literally a blank check) and endorse whatever the President/ Executive/ Employee did or does.

If such is the case, you're looking at a hostile/ wrongful discharge lawsuit that will put the screws to the association. I'm pretty sure COPA's president would eventually resign for "personal reasons" and at own terms, likely leaving into retirement or the next old boys club setting that will provide a golden parachute.

Most executives who get complimented out the door in such ways don't exactly fall into poverty or end up with a largely tarnished reputation. They simply disappear and continue on their merry way while those who stay in the field (in any role) may find struggle and may never really have their reputation restored.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by AirFrame »

I went looking for the Proxy today to check the wording:
I, THE UNDERSIGNED
________________________________
(print name)
being a member in good standing of the Canadian Owners & Pilots Association, hereby appoint,
___________________________________
(print name)
or failing him/her, the president of COPA, as proxy for the undersigned, to attend, act and vote for and on behalf of the
undersigned, at the Annual General Meeting, held on June 21, 2014, of the members of the association and any adjournment
thereof, and to vote and otherwise act thereat for and on behalf of the undersigned in respect of all matters that may properly
come before the meeting, in the same manner as the undersigned could do if personally present thereat, the undersigned
hereby ratifying and confirming and agreeing to ratify and confirm all that such proxy may lawfully do by virtue hereof.
Note the "or failing him/her" clause. This means that if the person you designate cannot vote for some reason, the president may vote on your behalf instead. See previous discussion regarding security at the AGM, and why they might want that. Maybe a mass membership rescinding for anyone showing up who had a significant number of proxies? Security escorts the person out, and the President now has another stack of proxies to vote with. If dirty pool is on the table, be ready for it.

Also note that the proxy directs that it be submitted to COPA by June 13th. If you want to name a proxy, it has to be registered with COPA HQ via the addresses on the proxy. Sending it or giving it only to your designee is not adequate, although ensuring they have a copy would be a good idea.

One nice thing about this proxy, is that it is only for the AGM. If they were thinking, they would have made it a generic proxy that continued until you rescinded it or changed your designee.

I cannot attend this year, but I would gladly give my proxy to someone who (a) is 100% sure (as they can be) that they will attend, and (b) thinks this sh1t has gone on long enough.

Note that I don't believe that any of this sabre-rattling will accomplish anything other than making it clear that a significant percentage of members aren't pleased. I predict that the dissenters at this meeting will be outnumbered by supporters of the board by a factor of 10.

Oh, and here's the original proxy, for reference: http://copanational.org/files/2014_Noti ... _Final.pdf
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by CpnCrunch »

I just got my COPA renewal notice recently, so I fired off an email to COPA, Kevin and my local director saying that I probably won't renew due to the way they removed Doug.

The only reply I got was from my local director. It appears he voted with the board to get rid of Doug. He also seems to have a blind spot about the bylaws...he just said that there's a lot of misinformation going round on social media, and that there are two sides to the story. I pointed out that I had gotten the info directly from COPA's website, and that it was the method of removing Doug that I had a problem with, as it goes against the bylaws. He hasn't responded.

Anyway, just be aware that the directors act on behalf of the members, and they are subordinate to the members. Basically the members allow the directors and executives to handle the day-to-day running and decision making of the organisation. As soon as the directors go against the wishes of the members, it's time to get rid of them.

In fact it is incredibly easy for the members to get rid of all the directors. It's simply a matter of making the proposal at a meeting, and getting the votes. It is the members who ultimately have control of the organisation, not the directors or the executive.

The real-world problem, of course, is whether or not the members really care about what's going on or whether they just blindly follow the board.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by AirFrame »

*All* of the directors will tell you that they voted with the board. They have been directed to, and gag-ordered not to talk about it when asked. Our regional director stood up at our chapter meeting this month and told us that the board got a legal opinion that the removal didn't violate any laws, that it had to be done due to the timeliness of the issue, and that there were director's confidentiality concerns that had to be protected.

It stinks to high heaven. However, I still renewed. COPA is needed, even if management needs changing. I support COPA, not what the current board did in relation to Doug Ronan.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by CpnCrunch »

AirFrame wrote:*All* of the directors will tell you that they voted with the board. They have been directed to, and gag-ordered not to talk about it when asked. Our regional director stood up at our chapter meeting this month and told us that the board got a legal opinion that the removal didn't violate any laws, that it had to be done due to the timeliness of the issue, and that there were director's confidentiality concerns that had to be protected.

It stinks to high heaven. However, I still renewed. COPA is needed, even if management needs changing. I support COPA, not what the current board did in relation to Doug Ronan.
Yes, it was the same director that I talked to.

The issue, as I have pointed out, is that the directors are subservient to the members, so if we aren't happy about the Doug Ronan issue then they have to give us all of the information. It's not as if we are random members of the public trying to get information out of them. The directors serve us, not the other way round. If they are hiding things from us then there is a problem.

I don't particularly want to spend the money going to the AGM just to make my point, so my only option is to email the directors and refuse to renew my membership unless things change.

It particularly hits home for me because something similar is happening at my local flying club. It makes me wonder whether pilots can actually be involved in running any large organisation without resorting to in-fighting and bullying.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by spafloats »

I have spoken with one COPA Director and he did not vote with the Board, and I`m told that two others did not vote with the Board either. I have also spoken with another lawyer who is also a COPA member and he is of the opinion that what the Board did to Doug was not legal.

I will be attending the COPA AGM and suspect that it could be quite entertaining! Just remember that the President serves at the pleasure of the Board, the Board is democratically elected to represent the members and a Director was removed by the non-renewal of hiss membership, thus making him ineligible to be a Director. A non-unanimous vote by the Board removed a duly elected Director, member and head of a COPA Flight.In addition the Board seat has been left vacant for a year.

A dysfunctional state of affairs at COPA, IMHO!!

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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by AirFrame »

spafloats, if you'd like it I could give you my proxy for the AGM. You'll need to send me your name and COPA number (I suggest in a private message).
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by CpnCrunch »

AirFrame wrote:spafloats, if you'd like it I could give you my proxy for the AGM. You'll need to send me your name and COPA number (I suggest in a private message).
Me too.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by spafloats »

I look forward to voting any proxy submitted to me at the AGM. Please PM me for my contact details.

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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by dstechnical »

DO NOT GIVE YOUR PROXY TO A DIRECTOR. THEY ARE BEING TOLD THAT THEY MUST VOTE ALL PROXIES IN FAVOUR. THIS THING JUST KEEPS ON GETTING MORE RIDICULOUS. HOW IS THAT FOR THE DIRECTORS REPRESENTING THE MEMBERS!
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by dstechnical »

spafloats you are correct not all board members voted in favour of removing doug ronan at the last AGM. NOW I understand that they plan to remove two more members at this AGM. With the new rules they only need nine votes to remove a board member or a member. It should be interesting at the AGM. they have hired several off duty OPP for security. They feel that the members might actually become vocal with this hijacking of their organization. This organization has become the presidents private club. some of the board feel he is irreplaceable. With a compensation package of around $250k(this figure came from the board) and a virtually unaudited expense account and great perks. (see all expense paid trip to china) I am sure you would be swamped with resumes
The board is fearful of a flood of southern ontario members swamping the meeting and defeating the ammendment. Lets hope so.
I wish i could be a the AGM to see the fireworks
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by CpnCrunch »

I'd recommend giving your proxy to spafloats.
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Last edited by CpnCrunch on Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by Colonel Sanders »

You can't change COPA, or TC for that matter.

But you do have a choice: stop giving money
to COPA. Stop pouring fuel on the fire.

My father (a 60 year member with a funny
low-digit number), myself and my son did
not renew our COPA memberships this year.

Vote with your wallet. It's the only one that
counts.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by CpnCrunch »

Colonel Sanders wrote:You can't change COPA, or TC for that matter.
You're right about TC, but you can very easily change COPA. Just fire all the directors (or at least the ones that voted to illegally get rid of Doug). You instantly have a completely new organisation with new management and new directors. A lot of people seem to forget that the members have 100% of the power in these organisations. Directors are subservient to the members and they serve at our pleasure. It seems that the directors of COPA may have forgotten this.
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Re: doug ronan removed as director from copa

Post by DougRonan »

We had a big party/barbecue here this past Saturday with over 150 people. “Fiery” Phil Englishman (newly re-elected COPA Director for this area) sent me an email asking if he could stop by and bring some proxies to get signed for the AGM. I replied “absolutely - bring as many as you like – if nothing else we can use them to light the barbecue!” He arrived mid afternoon at the height of the crowd. I was somewhat surprised to see that he was actually collecting proxies to vote AGAINST the pending by-law change at the upcoming AGM in Peterborough later this month. At least somebody on the COPA Board gets it!!

I filled him in on the fact that out of the 150 plus people in attendance – most of them – avid pilots, aircraft owners (quite a few multiple aircraft owners!), AME’s, airline pilots, and even a couple of Transport Canada Inspectors - he would have a hard time finding too many people with a valid COPA membership. I don’t think he got any proxies signed – unfortunately - that is a really good example of the sad state of COPA in the public forum! :rolleyes:

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