College of Pilots

[AutoPilot Off]

Got an email today from the college of pilots wanting a renewal of my membership. In my opinion this drive seems to be lacking momentum. with only 1100 odd members registered, I`m disappointed to say the least. With this kind of turn out what kind of clout can they carry? I already pay union dues and now this so whats the agenda?

[lostaviator]

I've decided to not renew. I haven't received anything out of my investment.

[ea306]

Personally I will renew.

It is only early days yet and although the momentum might not be what we would like it to be; the idea has been tossed around for years without anyone volunteering to step up to the plate. The vision is only in its infancy and is only just taking its baby steps towards becoming a reality. I think it is way too early to make an assessment of whether this effort is going to be a success or not.

It took me a long time to decide to support this effort. However I came to the conclusion that if we want to see a different future for our profession, then there is work to be done. If you believe and have the conviction that the profession is indeed worthy of being viewed and treated as a profession then why not support the efforts of Tom Machum and others pioneering this movement.

If we see a need for change and for overall representation towards the needs of our professional group; then why not support those who are showing willingness to labour on behalf of everyone towards that goal? As long as there are volunteers putting in their efforts for the betterment of the professional pilot as a whole; I will count it as an opportunity to pay back into our profession in hopes of something better for future generations and will support those volunteers. It's not an investment that I expect to see any immediate return or benefit or gain for myself as much as perhaps for the benefit of those who are only starting or are not even amongst our ranks in this profession as of this day.

Maybe, perhaps maybe, there will be success. Meanwhile, I am not seeing any other movement working towards this effort. So I will continue to choose to support the CPPC.

For what it is worth, I am not involved in any of the volunteer efforts. I only know a couple of the individuals involved. I am willing to support those volunteers by giving them this small annual contribution towards their efforts on behalf of all Canadian Pilots.

[Mr. North]

+1

I also think it's far to early to expect any tangible results. What did you expect to receive from your "investment"? A t-shirt? Another baseball hat to add to your collection?! haha! I currently consider my annual membership fee as a donation to those willing to put in the effort to better our profession. For all the griping going on in this industry (and especially on this forum) it is refreshing to see such a movement underway. Having said that, I share your frustration with regards to the low membership. I really thought more people would have joined but I'm still quite hopeful.

Again the College is only just being formed - by volunteers no less. This fall the membership will be electing a new Board. With a new Board I'm fairly certain an agenda will be outlined in short order. Why not stick around and take this opportunity to voice your concerns and help direct the College of Pilots towards matters that concern you? Personally I'm looking forward for the chance to discuss a change in duty times, licensing standards, and the whole foreign-pilots-working-in-Canada issue.

From where I am there is little I can do to further this profession other than mentor the occasional greenhorn. So I'll gladly pay a membership fee to compensate those who are actively raising this profession to it's rightful high standard. Lets try to focus beyond our own company or union here, this profession stands to benefit a great deal from collective representation.

['97 Tercel]

...doesn't seem like it's agenda is real TC/CARs changes or even commercial license management.

Me thinks it'll end up being just a large, organized mentoring club for new pilots (which is also good I suppose).

[Doc]

You keep dreaming the dream.....and sending in the money. No intentions to address working conditions. No intentions to address employment bonds (indentured servitude)......what exactly do you get for your money? A bloody pipe dream. Wake up children....you are NOT doctors or lawyers. A "College of Professional Pilots".....when pigs fly! Just read the "oldncold" thread to remind yourself of the "professionals" you're dealing with. Facking embarrassing! I'll take 'em out, and bring 'em back. Safely, every time! Not a bad job. But it's NOT a profession! Never was. Never will be. As long as we have pilots kissing ass for peanuts, signing bonds, coughing up money for jobs, it will remain a JOKE! Not a bad job.....but FAR from a "profession"!
AND, your beloved "college" has NO intentions to address any of the above.
But, by all means, renew your memberships.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I am renewing and encourage all pilots who are already members to renews and the other to join. This college of pilots will become what we make it become and it will do for us what we will make it do for us, but that is only possible if they represent the vast majority of us. Which is why for now, they need us to join in large numbers. They can do very little or nothing while they only represent a fraction of the professional pilots out there.

[lostaviator]

It is hard to keep putting money towards an idea. What is this college going to do for me, or us? As of right now... nothing. There is no guarantee that with even 50% of Canadian pilots behind the cause we would have an affect.

All my membership fee got me for the first year was a few emails every few months advertising small increase in membership and a new method to collect more money from me.

The idea is good but I am sorry folks.. I'll need to be a spectator until this college can actually show it is going to accomplish something.

[Mr. North]

You keep dreaming the dream.....and sending in the money. No intentions to address working conditions. No intentions to address employment bonds (indentured servitude)......what exactly do you get for your money? A bloody pipe dream. Wake up children....you are NOT doctors or lawyers. A "College of Professional Pilots".....when pigs fly! Just read the "oldncold" thread to remind yourself of the "professionals" you're dealing with. Facking embarrassing! I'll take 'em out, and bring 'em back. Safely, every time! Not a bad job. But it's NOT a profession! Never was. Never will be. As long as we have pilots kissing ass for peanuts, signing bonds, coughing up money for jobs, it will remain a JOKE! Not a bad job.....but FAR from a "profession"!
AND, your beloved "college" has NO intentions to address any of the above.
But, by all means, renew your memberships.

I hear what you're saying Doc, I really do. In my eyes it can go either way. This College can collapse in a few years (at a personal cost of $100-200) or it can slowly gather members and become a voice within the industry. Do I think it will elevate us to the haughty levels of Doctors or Lawyers (who by the way are as egotistical as any pilot)? No. But that is not to say it can't take us up from where we are now ...incoherent and halfway in the gutter. While it's doubtful that it could force regulatory changes, it does have the potential to influence them with a large enough membership, because really who has our voice now? Even if, at a bare minimum, the College mentors pilots and sets a professional "standard"; is that not better than what we have now (ie: nothing)?

Drawing from my own experience, I used this site extensively (among other resources) as a career aid - as in what to do, where to work, and how much I should make. As a new pilot, wouldn't it be better to have a professional organisation to look up to, in addition to some internet forum filled with blowhards?

I like to think this College can be what we make of it. Am I not expecting major regulatory changes. But it would be nice to have a united voice in an industry that is dominated by government, corporations, and various unions. Even if we do not benefit from the CPPC today, it would be nice to invest in such an organisation for those following in our wake.

[2.5milefinal]

...

[Masters Off]

I concur with Doc.
Putting a bold front to the real issues together is important.

Otherwise, the truth is that we have to continue to fight as individuals for dignety and pride, decent pay and working conditions. Some of us make the right decision and stick up for ourselves. Others follow the herd, work as instructors just to get hours (as their students suffer) work at places like Keystone or Skydive Toronto when we all know they shouldn't, work for less than a living wage and above all else put themselves and whatever follows them onboard in danger.

If a college is to represent us, represent the real issues. Set a bare minimum standard that we can at least look favourably upon. Put a mechanism in place to teach the future pilots what is best for them; they won't have time to figure out all the mistakes on their own.

Until there are specific and important goals outlined I, along with many pilots here, will not support such a cause. Not because it may not evolve into such things, because it chooses not to now. I have no purpose to support such a cause until it does stand up for our true need collectively.

Finally, if you support such a cause so much, the first thing you can do is hold it accountable and answer the nay sayers directly and honestly. Accountability in such cases makes it a much more understanable and reasonable discussion to have. Otherwise, you can put others down, like Doc which would get you nowhere. If you wish to dream that everything we do is positive (rose coloured glasses and all) and not talk about the bad things then perhaps you shouldn't be discussing our profession; there's a lot to fix and a lot of work to be done.

[Meatservo]

The moral obligation a captain has to his passengers and crew makes it a profession. The fact that the progress of new pilots depends on our setting an example, of leadership and responsibility and sometimes putting aside our own self-interest or desire for excitement or fear of reprisals to do what is best and safest, makes it a profession. The obligation you have to continuously re-train, upgrade, improve, and keep on top of new practices and new technology, without letting your standards drop or forgetting what you have learned in the past, makes it a profession.

Many people here don't understand that this is what makes a person a "Captain". Not the spiffy uniform or the signature in the logbook or the ego, but the commitment to doing what is right, setting an example and providing leadership, and upholding standards. Not allowing routine or high technology to dull your response time and make you complacent. Done properly, aviation is a complex, high-demand specialist task with some real burdens, which a "captain" learns to bear while setting an example for others.

I'm sorry to sound all high-minded and faggy, but there really are some people out there who deserve to be proud of being a "pilot" and deserve to be considered professionals. If you think about it, we don't receive a lot of real leadership from our "superiors" (most of whom are not aviators themselves) anymore, we have to provide it ourselves. I think it's time to inject some "professionalism", then maybe we can consider ourselves to be professional, and reclaim some of the pride we used to have in what we do for a living.

Whether that has anything to do with being part of a "college" is an individual choice. For the record I have not joined, but I am considering it, because I am curious to see if it can inject into our group some much-needed cohesion.

[Legacy]

Really? After one year people are saying what have I received for my investment? What were you expecting? A cheque? If this college succeeds, it would probably be one of the most substantial leaps forward in canadian aviation. And you expect this to materialize in a year? Tom said we need a lot more pilots to make a voice. So this puts us at a What comes first, the chicken or the egg? For 60 bucks, or whatever it is, a year I will support the college. For SOME of you get your head out of your butt and think of the next generation of pilots coming through. It may be you son/daughter. The way I see it, we owe it to them after messing up this industry for them (working for peanuts is just ONE of many issues). Quit being one of these cheap ass pilots and sacrifice that two cases of beer a year to support the college. Taking a look at some pilots out there sacrificing the two cases would be a good thing. I could sacrifice a case myself.

[Boreas]

I'd like to give this organization a chance - I guess I'm a bit of an optimist these days...

I have to ask though, what has happened with all the membership fees that have been collected until now? How much is the individual fee? $100? At 1100 members, that's quite the sum.

[ipilot54]

I agree totally with Doc. It is unfortunate but all you need to do is read a few of the threads in this forum to see that he is correct. The "lack" of professionalism demonstrated in here is astounding. It is very unfortunate but the reality is, many pilots do not conduct themselves in a professional manner in day-to-day ops. If they did, that professionalism would undoubtedly extend itself into this forum and perhaps then you would see less bashing of each other. With that would come respect by your peers, a more positive attitude and over time changes that could ultimately lead to better working conditions, remuneration and so on.

For the most part, we are our on worst enemy.....

[single_swine_herder]

A great Transport Canada CAI from the Edmonton office ..... the late Jim Dyer .... had a great expression that he passed along to me in the mid-70's .... "Canadian aviation ... where it's National Screw Your Buddy Week all year long."

[Green-White]

+1 for renewing. I've observed AvCanada for quite some time and stayed out as long as I could, but I feel like my 2 cents might be worth something here based on my experiences and discussions with the Board (which have all been very positive). I'll try to make some points based on my own interpretations so that some of you who are on the fence can hopefully make an informed decision:

1. The board is currently still self-appointed, which until it was explained to me, I didn't realize how much that has limited their actions. They have decided to use the funds from membership fees (Non-Voting for PPL holders that are enrolled in CPL training ($20), Voting- current pilots ($60) and Voting- retired pilots ($20)) to lay the groundwork for the association, rather than advertise, make promises, or advocate for causes that they haven't been told to advocate for by their members. Once the first democratically elected board gets into office in the fall, from what I understand they hope to ramp up advertising and start meeting with more folks across the country, among other things.

2. A few members of the board are currently working on issues such as the foreign pilots and have met with legislators in Ottawa, however have chosen not to do so under the umbrella of the College for a few reasons: a) The issue started before the College really came into play, and b) They feel it would be ethically wrong to do so as a self-appointed board member.

3. The College IS NOT a union, for those of you who are worried. It's not planning on bitter contract disputes, strikes, gamesmanship, etc. Politics aside, it is just my opinion that there are a number of folks who are very wary of unions, or others who are completely morally opposed to them and that fear prevents them from joining. The College hopes to move towards self-regulation and enforcement, as well as licensing. I support this idea, and my own view is that if Engineers (iron-ring, not AME's), who are the least social critters on the planet and are so afraid of women that the hallways of Engineering buildings in Universities across the country split like the Red Sea when one walks through, can form their own associations, govern themselves and do complex math (but barely wipe themselves), and still manage to have association-related outings to enjoy the occasional scotch can do it, how come social people like pilots who like to talk about themselves can't do it? Granted Engineering is a much more ancient profession than being a pilot, but still definitely doable in my mind.

4. The College has had discussions with various Members of Parliament, many of which all say the same things: 'What took you guys so long?', and 'We'll put that through Parliament as a Private Member's Bill, no problem!'. No problem or otherwise - the Board has asked the PM's to refrain from the Parliamentary option at the present time, for a number of reasons including a) The College is still a very young organization, b) The Board is still self-appointed and will be until the fall, and c) The Board feels that it doesn't represent nearly enough of the pilots in this country to go behind their backs, or take on such a major task.

I had a number of questions for the board when I met with them in a surprise layover in Dorval, such as when I found out that the College was really pushing to recruit from the majors. I asked why they wouldn't be focusing more on the grassroots pilots rather than airline pilots. The answer I got was that pilots from the major airlines in terms of sheer numbers represent the majority of the pilots in Canada (fair enough, if you're trying to build up a membership base I guess), and that they simply don't have the resources at present to go visit the Norman Wells', La Ronges, Thompsons, Pickle Lakes or Joe Batt's Arms of the world. They do fully anticipate an elected board to pursue such avenues, and I would hope so. The membership numbers in places where many entry-level jobs are located, such as Manitoba, Saskatchewan, or even the NWT are waaaaaay down, which would support my arguement. I realize population plays a role as well.

I tried to pass on to the President my opinion to go to smaller places and recruit people who don't work for the majors, simply because in my view they are the ones who could stand to gain the most from a College. What use would Jean-Pierre LaFramboisse the average unionized Air Canada FO have for a College since he's already got it made? Would he need/care enough to pay enough attention to who exactly is running the show, whether it be TC, a College, or a monkey with a dartboard? Or is he busy drinking sangria and listening to Skrillex at Club 747? I don't think people who work entry-level jobs are going to join up in numbers unless somebody from the College puts in effort to talk to them face to face and assure them of what exactly is going on and that their money would be put to work immediately, mostly because they can barely afford itchiban and a beer after work, and secondly because they are wary of promises and golden carrots being dangled over the internet (rightly so).

My apologies for the long winded reply, but hopefully this helps some of you make an informed decision. Seems insignificant now, but due diligence may pay off in time in this instance. Feel free to ask Tom Machum ('Make-um') or any other board members questions - great group of gentlemen, and very well versed.

Green-White

[EA757]

Professionalism....

"It is more than education.
It is more than experience.
It is a state of mind..."

If one's mind is open, one
can apply this philosophy
to all avenues of life.

[flyinthebug]

EDITED

EDITED

As for the college of pilots. I like Tom M and believe he has thrown his heart and soul into this project. That said, I agree there has been little if any progress (publicly) so im gonna take the wait and see approach. I have always been a vocal supporter of the college and believe once they set an agenda and start to take steps towards those agendas, they could become a valuable asset to pilots across this country. To those that have signed up, I understand the frustration but don't give up hope just yet...these things sometimes take a while to gain some traction. Id suggest continuing to support their efforts and see where this could go. Tom has foresight, some good people on the board, and hopefully that will lead to some positive outcomes for the college and its ideals.

I keep harping on this, but it seems the non-supporters of the college are people who are confusing the college for a Union. The college is NOT a union, and therefore has no business in negotiations for contracts and the amount pilots get paid. They may achieve regulatory change, maybe even become part of licencing, but setting rates for drivers is not on their agenda. That's up to pilots to finally say NO to paying for PPCs, or buying PPCs on airplanes that are FAR over their heads. Its up to the new pilots to say NO to crap wages and equipment. The college is an integral part of this by use of their mentoring program. If we mentor young pilots as they graduate or as they are training, that's where the college could have some really positive input into the future of aviation. They can show the new generation of pilots, the mistakes we made in coming up...and hopefully teach them their value and that saying NO sometimes is the only option. That's just one small positive the college can bring to our industry...and don't underestimate the strength of a good mentor.

Oh and sidebar...you`ve added my friends to your /foe list, so add me too. Why we even have a block function is beyond me? If you don't like what so many of us are saying, why block them? Why not just leave the board? I haven't got a single person on this site on block...as I might miss something valuable...as even the "loud mouth" people on here have something to offer the forum, and likely something I can learn from them. Blocking them is childish and maybe you need to go play in a different sandbox and ignore all your new playmates there.

Fly safe all.

[Schooner69A]

One of the founding members of the College Of Professional Pilots is a family friend so I have followed its emergence with some interest. However, I am somewhat concerned for its viability.

The stated mission of the CofPP is to “…oversee, maintain, and promote the calibre of Professional Pilots in Canada”. Their vision is that “The College of Professional Pilots of Canada will be recognized world-wide as the ‘gold standard’ for the self-governing model for maintaining pilot’s credentials”.
Fundamental to the above is the question “Is the art of driving aircraft from A to B a profession or a trade?” The following link discusses the attributes that are generally associated with recognized professions: http://www.maxwideman.com/papers/spectr ... ibutes.htm

Of those five (a Unique Body of Knowledge, Standards of Entry, a Code of Ethics, a Service Orientation to the Profession, and a Sanctioning Organization), the first four could fall under the stated mission of the CofPP to “…oversee, maintain, and promote the calibre of Professional Pilots in Canada”. However, I think the sticking point will be the last for I fear that TC will not easily give up its role in “…maintaining pilot’s credentials”.
A profession arises when any trade or occupation transforms itself through "the development of formal qualifications based upon education, apprenticeship, and examinations, the emergence of regulatory bodies with powers to admit and discipline members, and some degree of monopoly rights”.

We can be “professional” in our approach to our job, but without the ability to set and maintain standards as is done in accounting, engineering, law, medicine, etc , there is no “profession”. And, given the recent fiasco between the CBAA and TC, I think it will be sometime before the latter again relinquishes authority to others to “maintain pilot credentials”.

Which is all a gloomy take on the future of the College of Professional Pilots. I hope I’m wrong.


John