Is there a market for real-time FDR data??

[ogopogo]

Doing a little research on the market pull for getting real time FDR data from the A/C into the hands of operators. To be precise, moving FDR data up through a satellite network in real time to allow air carriers to monitor aircraft parameters on an ongoing basis. The issue was precipitated by the AF447 incident of course, but that notion has always been there.

It means adding an additional data box to each aircraft, and a fee to access the satellite network of course. My impression is airlines have trouble justifying adding an extra pretzel on board, never mind something like this.

Two start ups in Canada are attempting to do this:

http://www.star-navigation.com/

http://flyht.com/

My question: unless it is mandated, will airlines adopt this? is there a market for this?

[YYCAME]

I assume you mean real time data backups, which would be useful when recovery of a FDR isn't possible or expensive. Real time monitoring would be absolutely useless though (no way to help beyond standard SOP anyhow, unless you mean monitoring the CVR in a hijacking etc), so what you are trying to sell is the idea that it is cheaper and safer to have a cloud backup of the FDR then to obtain that data after a crash. I'm assuming investigation costs in a disaster are carried by the regulatory bodies so they are the one who would have to see it as a cost beneficial, or safety issue to mandate it.

This is assuming the system works perfectly though, and that the last minute before the 'incident' is able to be immediately broadcast despite very unusual conditions that can occur then. That is asking a lot of the technology I think, generally there is some lag in extreme or unusual circumstances so you will lose those crucial last moments. I suppose having the data up to the last minute is better then nothing though and if you are already outfitting an aircraft for onboard wifi then that is where it is convenient and practical to tie that system on because your not locking yourself into a proprietary data monitoring system that charges you huge access fees.

[ogopogo]

YYCAME:

No, I am referring to real-time monitoring of FDR parameters, and not necessarily during an emergency. The airline would have access to real time performance, trend analysis, aircraft health, maintenance issues, FOQA, MOQA, ETOPS performance, fuel management – actual vs predicted, OOOI times, record keeping, etc etc for every single plane in the fleet. Archives could easily be kept for records, and so on.

So what I am asking is, “is there really a market for this?”. These two companies seem to think so, and are actually selling this service to a limited number of operators. Both have issued IPOs to raise money but I don’t think the sales are exactly happening.

[Liquid Charlie]

FDM is being embraced by most large carriers and is used for training and safety - there are very protective clauses in most if not all collective agreements to protect the flight crews and provide anonymity -- not sure how a non union carrier would use it --

Good providers with good software are very hard to find -- it's a market that is controlled by few and to break into it a company would need to be innovated and cost competitive -- the ability for end users to create their own animations is very important alone with the security of the system. FDM is a pilot tool and usually is left in the pilot group control. It is not intended for company use to monitor and discipline pilots.

[Panama Jack]

I am sure there is a demand for this data, and once some have it and airlines have figured out how they can use it, others will want it too.

The question, as always, is how much is this going to cost vs. pulling the QAR tapes for FOQA programs and what is the economic payoff (sure it may be cool, but how does this make the airline better in economic terms- does this potentially provide an edge and can you quantify it?).

Pilot groups, of course, will be interested in who accesses it and what it will be used for.

[Heliian]

Will it save the company money.?

You could use it to improve fuel efficiency by trending flight profiles and finding the most economical way to fly.

As far as the pilot group is concerned, they should be worried because this would be the first step toward an "unmanned" airliner.

[cdnpilot77]

I heard a rumour a while back that a scheduled service Metro operator in Northern Ontario had a similar device installed in their airplanes which management could also monitor the CVR in real time through a computer uplink.

[jeta1]

My question: unless it is mandated, will airlines adopt this?

FDM in Canada is still voluntary across the board, even for 705 operators, even with ICAO saying all large passenger airliners "shall" have FDM programs as part of their SMS. TC still does not mandate it and it appears that this will not change anytime soon. Of course some large operators in Canada have indeed embraced FDM voluntarily for all the good reasons, and I could see a few select operators out of those trial a live satellite link on a random basis, but certainly not fleet wide. Great idea, but very very limited market and indeed, keep those pretzels coming...

[2.5milefinal]

http://www.appareo.com/primarymenu/prod ... sion-1000/
I dont want this kind of thing in my cockpit but I think its on its way.

[ogopogo]

Thanks for all your answers and comments _ I am going to conclude that the market is quite small until something like this actually gets mandated.

[goldeneagle]

Doing a little research on the market pull for getting real time FDR data from the A/C into the hands of operators. To be precise, moving FDR data up through a satellite network in real time to allow air carriers to monitor aircraft parameters on an ongoing basis.

...

My question: unless it is mandated, will airlines adopt this? is there a market for this?

I designed and implemented exactly that product for a client back in the late 90's. I ended up leaving the project when security rules changed after 9/11, and american citizenship became a requirement to continue on working that one. Client gave me the option, move to the USA sponsored, or leave the project and move onto other projects. I chose the latter. The american citizenship security requirement was dictated by one of the larger operators with deployed equipment, which was already in flight testing at the time.

The product we deployed with numerous air carriers, included a variety of data backhaul options, from very expensive real time, to far less expensive store and forward technologies. It is a fully automated system, which delivers data into a data center, where it's deployed for FOQA, as well as going to maintenance for trend analysis. More than one carrier followed thru, and built on the system such that inbound aircraft automatically get a maintenance gate hold on arrival, and that hold doesn't get released till the data is passed thru trending. It's a fully automated system, no human interaction from one end to the other.

The concept is absolutely not new, is available 'off the shelf' fully certified today. When I left the project, 10 years ago, we had paperwork in place for the 47, 37, 27, CRJ, q400, dash8 1/200, and a few airbus models, dont remember exactly which ones.

IMHO, there is a market for this, it's well served, and those who NEED it, already know where to get it. Developing from scratch is going to be very expensive, and, the target customers who need it, already have it installed in the airplanes. Those who dont have it installed, dont need it. Those out there that graduate to 'need it', will go with a tried and proven product they can buy, which comes with all the paperwork required to put it in the avionics bay of the aircraft type they need / want it on.

For a newcomer to this market, talking ipo, that doesn't have a product already in production, IMHO, it's just somebody trolling the capital markets for venture money, who hasn't really done the homework on the product / market. The certification hurdles and patent minefields are NOT insignificant. Been there, done that.

[The Mole]

Ive seen helicopters with what i guess is an FDR system. The system is integrated with the Sat Tracker. But the system has triggers in it on top of what a basic Sat GPS tracker has and more accurate. It monitors aircraft systems in real time, but only transmits data when an event is triggered. The system ties into the engine FADAC data to monitor all engine parameters. Exceed any and an event is triggered and sent off. A gyro system not solely gps based is used to capture turn and decent rates. Exceed a preset limit and an event is triggered. A camera is pointed at the passengers and one with a forward view, of the dash and front wind screen. The owner can prove his aircraft are being flown with-in limits and safety. Oil companies love it.

Yes there is market for FDR in little aircraft, and nobody is waiting for regulators to make it happen.


If your not familiar with a FADAC system heres recent accident report from a bell407. The bottom has what the fadac recored from the crash.

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 1p0117.asp

[costermonger]

I heard a rumour a while back that a scheduled service Metro operator in Northern Ontario had a similar device installed in their airplanes which management could also monitor the CVR in real time through a computer uplink.

We've got a whole fleet of flight training aircraft equipped with the system I suspect you're talking about, and while it does feature a CVR, it isn't real time. It saves and uploads the data once the aircraft is parked in a location with an accessible wireless network.

[ogopogo]

Goldeneagle:

My curiosity with this particular system (Star Navigation ) is that it uses the Iridium satellite network which can provide real time global tracking. My interest is in the global market, if there is one.

How/where did you design your system? PM me if you wish to discuss.

[ogopogo]

Comments on this video?

http://vimeo.com/18497138

[AvioGuy]

As far as real-time or streaming data, I would say no, there isn't a market for it. There is definitely demand for flight data for use by maintenance and FOQA for sure. Downloading the data on the ground using wi-fi or cellular is far more economical than real-time streaming.