"Down and Clear" for IFR Aircraft

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Rowdy Burns
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"Down and Clear" for IFR Aircraft

Post by Rowdy Burns » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:27 pm

I posted this under another thread but realized I was thread-drifting it.

Are IFR aircraft required to report "down and clear"? For those unfamiliar with that phrase it's used to satisfy 602.101 (e).

Here is the VFR rules:

MF Reporting Procedures on Arrival

602.101 The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft arriving at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report

(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position, altitude and estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command's arrival procedure intentions;

(b) when joining the aerodrome traffic circuit, giving the aircraft's position in the circuit;

(c) when on the downwind leg, if applicable;

(d) when on final approach; and

(e) when clear of the surface on which the aircraft has landed.


Here are the IFR rules:

Reporting Procedures for IFR Aircraft When Approaching or Landing at an Uncontrolled Aerodrome


602.104 (1) This section applies to persons operating IFR aircraft when approaching or landing at an uncontrolled aerodrome, whether or not the aerodrome lies within an MF area.

(2) The pilot-in-command of an IFR aircraft who intends to conduct an approach to or a landing at an uncontrolled aerodrome shall report

(a) the pilot-in-command's intentions regarding the operation of the aircraft

(i) five minutes before the estimated time of commencing the approach procedure, stating the estimated time of landing,

(ii) when commencing a circling manoeuvre, and

(iii) as soon as practicable after initiating a missed approach procedure; and

(b) the aircraft's position

(i) when passing the fix outbound, where the pilot-in-command intends to conduct a procedure turn or, if no procedure turn is intended, when the aircraft first intercepts the final approach course,

(ii) when passing the final approach fix or three minutes before the estimated time of landing where no final approach fix exists, and

(iii) on final approach.


Just wondering if I carried this over from the VFR world into IFR. I don't think I'm the only guy out there who does this - seems like alot of folks will broadcast their taxi intentions after leaving the runway. But just curious what the proper thing is to do.
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Prodriver
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Re: "Down and Clear" for IFR Aircraft

Post by Prodriver » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:51 pm

Don't you will look like a tool. As I understand there is no difference w/ a down and clear call IFR or VFR at an FSS or on a local Unicom or MF. As I clear a runway at an FSS I report "clear of all runways" or "clear of runway 30" No one cares as long as it is understood for the guy waiting to go that you are down and clear of the active and have reported clear of the active. Look at the Tenner reef accident in 1977 the worst aviation accident ever and was a simple runway clearing / reporting issue, never assume anything w/ runway movements.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYdqQegmmWY

If required you can tell the other A/C on the ramp or movement area what you are up too, or what side you are passing on, etc, as long as it is necessary comm's it is good airmanship, just don't talk to hear yourself talk.IMO
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Liquid Charlie
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Re: "Down and Clear" for IFR Aircraft

Post by Liquid Charlie » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:57 am

Look at the Tenner reef accident in 1977 the worst aviation accident ever and was a simple runway clearing / reporting issue
-- you better review that one again it certainly wasn't that simple and in fact it was one of the major contributing factors to adopt CRM --

In the attempt not to have thread drift -- certainly it's required and any airport with FSS or published MF -- remote and uncontrolled and no traffic within 500nm pilots do what we do best -- get lazy --
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photofly
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Re: "Down and Clear" for IFR Aircraft

Post by photofly » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:32 am

I think the op is over thinking. Tell other pilots what you'd want them to tell you.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: "Down and Clear" for IFR Aircraft

Post by Gilles Hudicourt » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:26 am

I think that what the OP fails to understand, is that the instant an IFR aircraft has successfully landed following an IFR approach, he ceases to be an IFR aircraft......
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cyeg66
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Re: "Down and Clear" for IFR Aircraft

Post by cyeg66 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:50 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:I think that what the OP fails to understand, is that the instant an IFR aircraft has successfully landed following an IFR approach, he ceases to be an IFR aircraft......
Well, not exactly from the controller's point of view, but I know what you're saying....
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pelmet
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Re: "Down and Clear" for IFR Aircraft

Post by pelmet » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:19 am

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:I think that what the OP fails to understand, is that the instant an IFR aircraft has successfully landed following an IFR approach, he ceases to be an IFR aircraft......
This is an interesting statement However.......


The CAR's as posted are quite specific that these rules to be followed are based on whether you are arriving VFR or IFR rather than what you are after landing. One thing to point out is that the VFR procedures posted are for an airport with a Mandatory Frequency while the IFR requirements posted are for any uncontrolled airport. Perhaps there are other requirements on top of that for the IFR aircraft if he lands at an MF airport. And perhaps there are other requirements not posted here that the policy wonks can easily dig up from other remote sections of the CAR's that you didn't know about.

Of course good technique dictates reporting down and clear under normal circumstances but when it comes to a potential violation point of view and whether something is technically mandatory, the exact wording of the CAR's will be significant. Of course there is the TC catch-all to violate someone under reckless operation.
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oldtimer
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Re: "Down and Clear" for IFR Aircraft

Post by oldtimer » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:19 pm

Back in the good old days, I recall it was standard practice for an IFR aircraft to cancel IFR which closed the flight plan and as far as the IFR controller was concerned, you basically ceased to exist. Mind you, if the controller knew of a possible conflict, it was mentioned, Also, if it was at a remote airport, the airspace near that airport was closed to any and all IFR airplanes until the lander either cancelled IFR or reported down and clear or at least on the runway. A problem existed at Jasper Hinton Entrance, CEC4 where contact with Edmonton ATC and FSS was lost out of about 12,000 or so, so the procedure in good weather was to cancell out of FL180 because you were in uncontrolled airspace and proceed under VFR. Finally a Cessna Citation was inbound from the west, cancelled out of 180, did a VFR to the airport and ran the sucker off the runway into a ravine. Since the flight plan was closed, nobody knew about it till one of the survivors climbed out of the ravine and called a cab because there was nobody at the airport to witness the prang. Since then all IFR's had to either cancel the IFR but keep the alerting open until on the ground (or down and clear, take your pick) or land, and in the case of CEC4, call ATC on the phone. It was my experience that once an IFR airplane canceled the IFR, other conflicting IFR airplanes could be cleared.
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Flybabe
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Re: "Down and Clear" for IFR Aircraft

Post by Flybabe » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:43 pm

photofly wrote:I think the op is over thinking. Tell other pilots what you'd want them to tell you.
I agree with this. I believe it's called "airmanship".
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rt777
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Re: "Down and Clear" for IFR Aircraft

Post by rt777 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:50 pm

Today while at CYCD (MF) I witnessed Jazz and WJ Encore both say Down and Clear after they landed
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Rowdy Burns
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Re: "Down and Clear" for IFR Aircraft

Post by Rowdy Burns » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:27 pm

Hey thanks guys/gals for the replies!
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Taco Joe
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Re: "Down and Clear" for IFR Aircraft

Post by Taco Joe » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:24 am

Flybabe wrote:
photofly wrote:I think the op is over thinking. Tell other pilots what you'd want them to tell you.
I agree with this. I believe it's called "airmanship".
What is this "airmanship" you speak of?
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Flybabe
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Re: "Down and Clear" for IFR Aircraft

Post by Flybabe » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:56 am

Taco Joe wrote:
Flybabe wrote:
photofly wrote:I think the op is over thinking. Tell other pilots what you'd want them to tell you.
I agree with this. I believe it's called "airmanship".
What is this "airmanship" you speak of?
Kind of becoming lost in translation, I think ;)
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wingandaprayer
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Re: "Down and Clear" for IFR Aircraft

Post by wingandaprayer » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:49 pm

The reg in question doesn't mention whether there is an on-site service or not, but I'll assume that, since it's an MF, there is. I don't know if it is mandatory to call 'clear' or just on the ground, but looking at it from a legal standpoint, that call is a declaration on air(and tape) that the aircraft in question is down and safe and happy, and more importantly, that the maneuvering area is free for another aircraft to use.

The station I work at has two RAAS sites along with our home station. At our home site, we don't generally ask for a down and clear call, unless the visibility is very poor, because we can visually ascertain whether you are still on the runway or not.

At our RAAS sites, however, we will ask for a down and clear call because we cannot visually confirm whether an aircraft is still on the runway. Even if you report down on the runway, we still want a clear call. We have to assume that you are still out there until we get a verification that you are off; whether it be from you, or calling the Airport office to ask if you're sitting on the ramp or not. We tend to prefer the former, it's much less hassle. Also, if we don't get that call and another aircraft wants to land or depart, we have to let them know that there may or may not be an aircraft out there until we can get that confirmation.

My two cents
W&P
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