NDB's WHY??

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NeverBlue
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by NeverBlue »

Try flying in northern Manitoba and/or the arctic and you'll see the benefit of having an NDB! Sure they aren't at all as amazing as GPS but they are cheap and relatively low maintenance.
...dirt cheap...just a lil 'ol AM transmitter...and no maintenance at all. They'll run for ever if they're solid state and never even require re-tuning.

why would anyone want to get rid of them when there are some places in Canada where it's the only navigation aid that works?
Why are we still using these things? Isn't it time for them to go the way of the dinosaur?
...it's exactly the same technology as VOR/ILS, Communications, GPS, Cell phones, Sat-Com. It's all wireless technology. We just process the signals differently. (+/- 3 degrees accuracy)

If your ADF is not acurrate it's not the entire systems fault. Your ADF is not working to spec. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of good ADF techs anymore.
I remember troubleshooting and ADF system onboard an AC aircraft years ago and an Avionics Technician from said airline did not know the functional difference between the sense antenna and the loop antenna. 23 years on the job he was then...ugh.

I've flown many times with very good pilots shooting an ADF approach at an airport with no ILS and it was bang on every time.
You'd be hard pressed to find an ADF on the panel of a modern American aircraft.
...and hard pressed to find an American household without a loaded handgun in it somewhere...should we follow their lead on that too? :roll:

I believe we're intelligent enough in Canada to make our own choices thank you.
so lads take off the blinders and realize that there is aviation outside of your local area with different circumstances and even rules --
:smt038
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Changes in Latitudes
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by Changes in Latitudes »

Just drag the tail guys, really you will all be alright. :goodman:
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Changes in Latitudes wrote:Just drag the tail
You missed the last part, it goes "of your shirt over the GPS screen to get rid of the finger prints" :wink:
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sstaurus
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by sstaurus »

I guess all you guys must be using state of the art brand-new GPS equipment in all your aircraft.. but I've seen the GPS be unreliable enough times to be thankful that VOR and ADF are still around as backup. You also can't get vectors for every ILS out there if the radar fails too..
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NeverBlue
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by NeverBlue »

I recall a similar thread on Wet Compasses.

I don't understand the reasoning at all.

It's kind of like " why do we need airbags...I've never used mine once except when I accidently hit the back wall in my garage. They're so expensive to replace!"
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shimmydampner
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by shimmydampner »

NeverBlue wrote:...and hard pressed to find an American household without a loaded handgun in it somewhere...should we follow their lead on that too? :roll:
Dramatic hyperbole aside, as someone who makes a habit of only entering households I have been invited into, l would have zero problem with that, provided proper screening, licensing and training procedures were in place.
But I digress; I like NDB's for all of the previously stated reasons.
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Panama Jack
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by Panama Jack »

NeverBlue wrote:...and hard pressed to find an American household without a loaded handgun in it somewhere...should we follow their lead on that too? :roll:

I believe we're intelligent enough in Canada to make our own choices thank you.

So, to paraphrase, in the USA they kill themselves by shooting each other with handguns, in Canada we kill ourselves by shooting NDB Approaches.

"You can pry my NDB from my cold, dead hands, eh!"
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NeverBlue
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by NeverBlue »

:lol:

brilliant!
as someone who makes a habit of only entering households I have been invited into, l would have zero problem with that, provided proper screening, licensing and training procedures were in place.
Of course, Shimmy. Neither would I.
I was refering to the problems of "gun control". I have a few in my household...but they're locked up separate from the amo...and not loaded in the night table by the bed for the kids to find.
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NeverBlue
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by NeverBlue »

taken over by a bunch of holy rollers and now features non stop lame Christian songs
explain
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MrWings
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by MrWings »

I have a fondness for the ADF as they kept me awake before the days of iPods and satellite radio. Also, poor man's storm detector!
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loopy
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by loopy »

Easy now! I can still get Oilers games on 630 CHED. It's a nice pick-me-up when flying around the patch! You can also get Flames games on 960 and I know I have listened to Leafs games in the air in southern Ontario.

I think this is a significant operational use and requirement to at least have the equipment in the cockpit if not at airports!
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iflyforpie
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by iflyforpie »

I'm sure that AM radio will probably be next on the hit list for new technology hungry for space on the spectrum. UHF TV is gone for that reason. When the lobbyists get their way, NDBs will go the way of the dodo as well... making way for newer and more useful technology.

The only time I listen to AM radio is in the plane, and even then it is a rarity because I usually have tunes from my phone piping through the headset.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Panama Jack wrote:
"You can pry my NDB from my cold, dead hands, eh!"
Sadly for one pilot I knew that was the literal truth. A valley approach with very strong winds aloft and an overshot turn to the final track on the NDB approach ended in tragedy.....
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NeverBlue
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by NeverBlue »

Not unless new technology figures out how to deal with the noise problems at those frequencies Pie.

That's why NDBs are not as reliable south of the boarder...too much interference.

That's also why ADF is such a fabulous tool in troubleshooting aircraft precip-static problems. If there's any part of the aircraft that is holding a charge you'll usually hear it on the ADF audio.
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Post by Beefitarian »

Adam Oke wrote:Don't even think about trying to take away my swap-shop radio!
This did not get enough discussion. I probably have not heard swap-shop for three decades. I kind of want to go to Saskatchewan to listen to it.

A quick google delivered this.
wiki tradio page wrote:Federal regulations prohibit the sale of firearms through these services; real estate is also usually not allowed on tradio programs.
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Adam Oke
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Re:

Post by Adam Oke »

Beefitarian wrote:
Adam Oke wrote:Don't even think about trying to take away my swap-shop radio!
This did not get enough discussion. I probably have not heard swap-shop for three decades. I kind of want to go to Saskatchewan to listen to it.
I used to listen to it when I trained in Sarnia, ON -- 1070 CHOK. I recently caught it on a flight from MB to SK on 730 CKDM. Without Tradio, Sal and Rich from Stern would lack material.
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ettw
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by ettw »

Do what you want in SDA, but keep your hands off our NDBs here in NDA!!

Cheers

ETTW
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CID
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by CID »

Interesting discussion. With respect to static and p-static in particular, the ADF isn't as good a tool as your VHF and even weather radar believe it or not. The ADF is better at detecting noise generated by motors and generators. It's hard to distinguish p-static noise on ADF or HF from normal background and atmospheric noise.

As some have stated that NDB station is very simple and inexpensive to install and maintain and in my opinion an incredible back-up for other navigation systems including GPS which depends on a constellation of satellites thousands of miles away and susceptible to damage from all manner of cosmic disturbances. Not to mention that in Canada they are used as markers on the ILS on many approaches. Can you legally shoot the ILS to 07 in YQT without an ADF on board?

With respect to "spectrum" issues, consider this. The entire ADF operating frequency range is about 1.5 MHz. The difference between the transmitting and receiving frequencies of a transponder is 20 times that. A single TV channel (old school) occupies 3 times the bandwidth of the entire ADF frequency range. 1.5 MHz isn't enough bandwidth to stream a video over the internet. So....I don't think anyone is excited about the prospect of possibly opening up this band for any other use.
It's true. There is still a requirement in Northern Domestic airspace to be able to set the compasses independently of a magnetic source.
Not quite. You need to be able to establish "direction". Depending on which "interpreter" you speak with at TC, you can use track rather than heading. Making sure your compass is aligned is another thing altogether and worthy of a separate discussion.
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Taco Joe
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by Taco Joe »

CID wrote:Can you legally shoot the ILS to 07 in YQT without an ADF on board?
Yes you can. If you have a GPS or DME on board, you're all set.
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frozen solid
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by frozen solid »

CID wrote: Not quite. You need to be able to establish "direction". Depending on which "interpreter" you speak with at TC, you can use track rather than heading. Making sure your compass is aligned is another thing altogether and worthy of a separate discussion.
It is worthy of discussion. The only trouble I have with the above statement is that as I age, I become less and less likely to take for granted the airmanship of any TC "interpreter", nor indeed the airmanship that has gone into many of the CARS. Aviation in Canada is becoming more "every man for himself" when it comes to personal standards of airmanship. I personally set my heading displays to True North when I'm in the Northern domestic airspace. I know several reliable ways to do this, and as a last resort GPS track is OK under most circumstances. But it is not correct, and thereafter your heading indicators will function as "track indicators" if, and only if you reset them to the GPS every time you make a heading change. It turns them into an unnecessarily redundant instrument.

Anyway, enough people use NDBs to set heading indicators in the north that it might be useful to keep them. They's also useful for taking position bearings if the GPS has crapped out, which I admit is getting to be a rare occurrence, but when it happens the box usually displays a message like "GPS signal unreliable: continue navigation using other means", which indicates to me that even the wonderful magic box expects that you know what do do without it. Using the phrase "any aviator worth his salt" comes to mind but might seem unnecessarily harsh to the younger members of our community.
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