NDB's WHY??

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shimmydampner
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by shimmydampner » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:48 am

NeverBlue wrote:...and hard pressed to find an American household without a loaded handgun in it somewhere...should we follow their lead on that too? :roll:
Dramatic hyperbole aside, as someone who makes a habit of only entering households I have been invited into, l would have zero problem with that, provided proper screening, licensing and training procedures were in place.
But I digress; I like NDB's for all of the previously stated reasons.
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Panama Jack
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by Panama Jack » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:06 pm

NeverBlue wrote:...and hard pressed to find an American household without a loaded handgun in it somewhere...should we follow their lead on that too? :roll:

I believe we're intelligent enough in Canada to make our own choices thank you.

So, to paraphrase, in the USA they kill themselves by shooting each other with handguns, in Canada we kill ourselves by shooting NDB Approaches.

"You can pry my NDB from my cold, dead hands, eh!"
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NeverBlue
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by NeverBlue » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:13 pm

:lol:

brilliant!
as someone who makes a habit of only entering households I have been invited into, l would have zero problem with that, provided proper screening, licensing and training procedures were in place.
Of course, Shimmy. Neither would I.
I was refering to the problems of "gun control". I have a few in my household...but they're locked up separate from the amo...and not loaded in the night table by the bed for the kids to find.
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NeverBlue
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by NeverBlue » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:23 pm

taken over by a bunch of holy rollers and now features non stop lame Christian songs
explain
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MrWings
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by MrWings » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:24 pm

I have a fondness for the ADF as they kept me awake before the days of iPods and satellite radio. Also, poor man's storm detector!
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loopy
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by loopy » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:36 pm

Easy now! I can still get Oilers games on 630 CHED. It's a nice pick-me-up when flying around the patch! You can also get Flames games on 960 and I know I have listened to Leafs games in the air in southern Ontario.

I think this is a significant operational use and requirement to at least have the equipment in the cockpit if not at airports!
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by iflyforpie » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:43 pm

I'm sure that AM radio will probably be next on the hit list for new technology hungry for space on the spectrum. UHF TV is gone for that reason. When the lobbyists get their way, NDBs will go the way of the dodo as well... making way for newer and more useful technology.

The only time I listen to AM radio is in the plane, and even then it is a rarity because I usually have tunes from my phone piping through the headset.
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:05 pm

Panama Jack wrote:
"You can pry my NDB from my cold, dead hands, eh!"
Sadly for one pilot I knew that was the literal truth. A valley approach with very strong winds aloft and an overshot turn to the final track on the NDB approach ended in tragedy.....
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NeverBlue
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by NeverBlue » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:04 pm

Not unless new technology figures out how to deal with the noise problems at those frequencies Pie.

That's why NDBs are not as reliable south of the boarder...too much interference.

That's also why ADF is such a fabulous tool in troubleshooting aircraft precip-static problems. If there's any part of the aircraft that is holding a charge you'll usually hear it on the ADF audio.
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Post by Beefitarian » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:24 pm

Adam Oke wrote:Don't even think about trying to take away my swap-shop radio!
This did not get enough discussion. I probably have not heard swap-shop for three decades. I kind of want to go to Saskatchewan to listen to it.

A quick google delivered this.
wiki tradio page wrote:Federal regulations prohibit the sale of firearms through these services; real estate is also usually not allowed on tradio programs.
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Adam Oke
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Re:

Post by Adam Oke » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:52 pm

Beefitarian wrote:
Adam Oke wrote:Don't even think about trying to take away my swap-shop radio!
This did not get enough discussion. I probably have not heard swap-shop for three decades. I kind of want to go to Saskatchewan to listen to it.
I used to listen to it when I trained in Sarnia, ON -- 1070 CHOK. I recently caught it on a flight from MB to SK on 730 CKDM. Without Tradio, Sal and Rich from Stern would lack material.
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ettw
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by ettw » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:41 pm

Do what you want in SDA, but keep your hands off our NDBs here in NDA!!

Cheers

ETTW
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CID
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by CID » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:46 am

Interesting discussion. With respect to static and p-static in particular, the ADF isn't as good a tool as your VHF and even weather radar believe it or not. The ADF is better at detecting noise generated by motors and generators. It's hard to distinguish p-static noise on ADF or HF from normal background and atmospheric noise.

As some have stated that NDB station is very simple and inexpensive to install and maintain and in my opinion an incredible back-up for other navigation systems including GPS which depends on a constellation of satellites thousands of miles away and susceptible to damage from all manner of cosmic disturbances. Not to mention that in Canada they are used as markers on the ILS on many approaches. Can you legally shoot the ILS to 07 in YQT without an ADF on board?

With respect to "spectrum" issues, consider this. The entire ADF operating frequency range is about 1.5 MHz. The difference between the transmitting and receiving frequencies of a transponder is 20 times that. A single TV channel (old school) occupies 3 times the bandwidth of the entire ADF frequency range. 1.5 MHz isn't enough bandwidth to stream a video over the internet. So....I don't think anyone is excited about the prospect of possibly opening up this band for any other use.
It's true. There is still a requirement in Northern Domestic airspace to be able to set the compasses independently of a magnetic source.
Not quite. You need to be able to establish "direction". Depending on which "interpreter" you speak with at TC, you can use track rather than heading. Making sure your compass is aligned is another thing altogether and worthy of a separate discussion.
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by Taco Joe » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:02 am

CID wrote:Can you legally shoot the ILS to 07 in YQT without an ADF on board?
Yes you can. If you have a GPS or DME on board, you're all set.
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frozen solid
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by frozen solid » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:50 am

CID wrote: Not quite. You need to be able to establish "direction". Depending on which "interpreter" you speak with at TC, you can use track rather than heading. Making sure your compass is aligned is another thing altogether and worthy of a separate discussion.
It is worthy of discussion. The only trouble I have with the above statement is that as I age, I become less and less likely to take for granted the airmanship of any TC "interpreter", nor indeed the airmanship that has gone into many of the CARS. Aviation in Canada is becoming more "every man for himself" when it comes to personal standards of airmanship. I personally set my heading displays to True North when I'm in the Northern domestic airspace. I know several reliable ways to do this, and as a last resort GPS track is OK under most circumstances. But it is not correct, and thereafter your heading indicators will function as "track indicators" if, and only if you reset them to the GPS every time you make a heading change. It turns them into an unnecessarily redundant instrument.

Anyway, enough people use NDBs to set heading indicators in the north that it might be useful to keep them. They's also useful for taking position bearings if the GPS has crapped out, which I admit is getting to be a rare occurrence, but when it happens the box usually displays a message like "GPS signal unreliable: continue navigation using other means", which indicates to me that even the wonderful magic box expects that you know what do do without it. Using the phrase "any aviator worth his salt" comes to mind but might seem unnecessarily harsh to the younger members of our community.
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by cpt.sam » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:12 pm

Big Pistons Forever wrote:As near as I can figure the last time I flew a for real NDB approach in actual IMC conditions without GPS guidance to accurately maintain the inbound track was 1994. I learned IFR in the pre GPS, pre near universal radar coverage days. As soon as GPS showed up I lost all interest in dealing with all the inaccuracies and foibles of the ADF. I still liked to use the needle to help with situation awareness but now that all the GPS units have a moving map I don't even use it for that anymore. The final straw was when my favorite AM rock and roll station was taken over by a bunch of holy rollers and now features non stop lame Christian songs :evil:

I see the point about keeping NDB's up in the far north but IMO they could shut down every NDB South of 60N and it would not make a bit of difference to my flying.

AND
it may even force some carriers to put a frickin gps in their airliners!


Now... I don't really see any need of getting rid of them.
They are a challenge to shoot, but thats just more fun.
Try the NDB 34 in YYT in a hurricane w/o a gps to cheat with! Station passage is noted by a wallop of turbulence, associated with Signal Hill and northerly wind!
You will enjoy the challenge....pax...perhaps not! :smt014
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Last edited by cpt.sam on Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by cpt.sam » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:17 pm

[/quote]
So, to paraphrase, in the USA they kill themselves by shooting each other with handguns, in Canada we kill ourselves by shooting NDB Approaches.
"You can pry my NDB from my cold, dead hands, eh!" [/quote]


Very nice! :lol:
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by Hawkerflyer » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:24 pm

The NDB is still widely used in Africa.
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Edo
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by Edo » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:28 pm

frozen solid wrote: Anyway, enough people use NDBs to set heading indicators in the north that it might be useful to keep them..
I don't fly in N Domestic airspace and have never done this. How do you?
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NeverBlue
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by NeverBlue » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:38 pm

Interesting discussion. With respect to static and p-static in particular, the ADF isn't as good a tool as your VHF and even weather radar believe it or not. The ADF is better at detecting noise generated by motors and generators. It's hard to distinguish p-static noise on ADF or HF from normal background and atmospheric noise.
good to hear from you CID

The Dayton-Granger Precip-Static test set is what I use to determine these problems. I just use a simple old AM headset radio and/or someone sitting inside listening to VHF and ADF audio. I charge the wand to about 13000 volts (or somewhere around there I think) and I have been able to solve many many static problems by locating unboned panels or windscreens.
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by Colonel Sanders » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:43 pm

locating unboned panels or windscreens
That certainly explains the strange erotic sounds
I hear at night from the maintenance hangar.
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by NeverBlue » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:53 pm

... :lol:


ok un-bonded

...that was funny
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by CID » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:27 pm

NeverBlue wrote:
Interesting discussion. With respect to static and p-static in particular, the ADF isn't as good a tool as your VHF and even weather radar believe it or not. The ADF is better at detecting noise generated by motors and generators. It's hard to distinguish p-static noise on ADF or HF from normal background and atmospheric noise.
good to hear from you CID

The Dayton-Granger Precip-Static test set is what I use to determine these problems. I just use a simple old AM headset radio and/or someone sitting inside listening to VHF and ADF audio. I charge the wand to about 13000 volts (or somewhere around there I think) and I have been able to solve many many static problems by locating unboned panels or windscreens.

Ahh...in that context you make perfect sense. I thought you were speaking in the operational sense. When panels or control surfaces are not bonded I tend to see it in VHF first. COMs break squelch and NAVs flag when entering precipitation. Then the weather radar starts to act strange.

ADFs are a little tougher because they can go batty with electrical activity in the general area. You don't even need to fly through precipitation. In a controlled test scenario like you described it works great.
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by Liquid Charlie » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:12 am

The only thing I keep seeing is that the NDB approach is "challenging" -- wtf -- it's just putting some numbers together, timing and a little accurate tracking -- pretty easy stuff in reality -- :roll:
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Re: NDB's WHY??

Post by ettw » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:21 am

Edo wrote:
frozen solid wrote: Anyway, enough people use NDBs to set heading indicators in the north that it might be useful to keep them..
I don't fly in N Domestic airspace and have never done this. How do you?
It's a perfect melding of old and new technology.

At top of decent we pull up the page on our GPS that gives us a bearing to the NDB we have tuned up. Then we drive our compass heading in the appropriate direction until the RMI shows the correct bearing to the NDB. Voila! Windage factored in automatically.

You cannot do this with a VOR as the indication you have displayed is the radial you are on, not the bearing to the VOR.

If you have a very good C11 DG or some other INS unit you may be able to get away with just correcting for convergence. No NDB required.

Ye old astrocompass works very well but of course won't work unless the heavenly body you are working off of is visible. So no good in overhead OVC or BKN conditions.

Cheers

ETTW
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