French in Radio

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

cpt.sam
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:36 am

French in Radio

Post by cpt.sam » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:19 pm

Can anyone provide a better source than CARs 602.133 on why french is acceptable?
Of course, if the controller is french, and all the traffic is french, the point is moot. However, when not everyone speaks french, how is it that it's ok for a foreign language to be used aviation.
Again, if everything were radar controlled and whatnot, the point again would be moot.
BUT...When you fly into non radar environments, not knowing what any other aircraft is saying, or what the controller is saying, trying to get a word in edgewise to ask WHAT THE F%CK is going on, where is the traffic, and not getting the satisfaction of knowing you and your pax are safe because of language barrier........That's not safe.
It's like taking all your situational awareness away, it's not safe!

And before you francophones start...
I am NOT AGAINST FRENCH.
I am against idiotic use of brain cells.
Pilots speak english....all of us!
Controllers speak english... all of em!
If there is someone on the frequency that does not speak french, ENGLISH should be used.... It's not cuz English is the language of aviation. It's common sense.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Beefitarian
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 6448
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:53 am
Location: Lurking

Post by Beefitarian » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:38 pm

I was in France on vacation second time I managed such a feat and possibly at the detriment of flying dollars.

Driving in the country we happened upon a small airdrome. It was a drizzly over cast Sunday yet there were many cars parked at the club building. I told my wife, "I know what's going on here. It's too crappy to fly but there's a bunch of French guys in there eating and drinking wine. I'm going to check it out."

Sure enough. It was the only time during the trip I really regret not having better French language skills. There were only a few that spoke honglaise and not fluent. We did ok between us but discussing the piper cub one of the guys was intending to build was difficult.

Sure if you fly into Montreal there will be a controller to speak with you but go to some smaller places and you might have to arrange for an English speaking one.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Go Juice
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 265
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:37 am

Re: French in Radio

Post by Go Juice » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:45 pm

Because French is not a foreign language numb nussen!
---------- ADS -----------
  

Rockie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7693
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:10 am

Re: French in Radio

Post by Rockie » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:54 pm

cpt.sam wrote:However, when not everyone speaks french, how is it that it's ok for a foreign language to be used aviation.
Foreign languages are used in aviation all over the world along with wildly varying proficiencies of English spoken with almost impossible to understand accents. We have it good here in Canada.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Panama Jack
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3213
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:10 am
Location: The Sandbox

Re: French in Radio

Post by Panama Jack » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:24 pm

You probably will want to refer to some ICAO literature.

The deal here is that English is the common language, as I understand it, must be provided at International Airports and by ATC dealing with international air traffic. As such, pilots engaging in international aviation must demonstrate the required proficiency in English or the alternative language offered by ATC (ie. Spanish in Latin America).

Yes, ATC services are being offered in the local lingo in France, Greece, Turkey, Russia, Latin America and China. That is just the parts of the world that I have experienced first-hand. If the country allows the use of the language that is OK, but they must also be able to provide English-language services to foreign pilots who will be using those ATC facilities.

Not much of a problem, normally, but I did have a heck of a time once getting the current weather for Kashi (ZWSH), which was an en-route airport on an escape-route.

In any case, look & avoid is the unfortunate rule of the road for separating yourself from VFR traffic. If you are tooling around IFR in uncontrolled airspace, well, then you are also responsible for traffic separation. We are lucky in Canada that we have airspace where positive control is not mandated between all aircraft. You are correct about the safety implecations, though, about not everybody speaking a common language. The language issue in Canada is an emotional and sometimes, irrational one. Suck it up.
---------- ADS -----------
  

ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5858
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: French in Radio

Post by ahramin » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:20 am

If you're worried about it sam, learn French.
---------- ADS -----------
  

bmc
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4014
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 10:06 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: French in Radio

Post by bmc » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:23 am

ahramin wrote:If you're worried about it sam, learn French.
Good suggestion. I doubt whining about it on Avcanada will change the world. It might. But I doubt it.

French is used in France and Switzerland up to 24,000 feet. English proficiency is a requirement to getting any pilots license in Europe.

This is an old topic. I'm guessing you are new to aviation, Sam?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Panama Jack
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3213
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:10 am
Location: The Sandbox

Re: French in Radio

Post by Panama Jack » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:09 am

So how does that work out, bmc, with French, German, Italian and Romansh being spoken in such a small country?

Image
---------- ADS -----------
  

boogs82
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 334
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:55 am
Contact:

Re: French in Radio

Post by boogs82 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:13 am

As was mentioned, French isn`t a foreign language. You might want to check the Official Languages Act where it discusses the two official languages in Canada. I`ll give a hint....French is one of them. :)
---------- ADS -----------
  

bmc
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4014
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 10:06 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: French in Radio

Post by bmc » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:52 am

Skyguide, the Swiss ATC, controls flights over French terrritory from roughly Lyon east and Dole south. The Germans do not have the privilege to speak their native language above 10,000ft, if I'm not mistaken, due to losing the war.

I've attended flying here in Switzerland and everyone reverts to the common international language of English. But when they are in their home parts, you'll hear French, Germand and Italian. I don't know how many pilots speak Romansch.
---------- ADS -----------
  

bmc
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4014
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 10:06 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: French in Radio

Post by bmc » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:54 am

Until someone pointed out that there were a couple of European military training zones, I always wondered is Swiss Air Force plots were always in one continuous hard left turn to stay within borders. :mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
  

iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7870
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: French in Radio

Post by iflyforpie » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:58 am

Part of me wishes we were forced to listen/speak more French in Canada. My high school French has long since languished so I am embarrassed to speak or even write it, and reading Wikipedia in French only gets me so far.
---------- ADS -----------
  

fabichoux
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:10 am

Re: French in Radio

Post by fabichoux » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:59 am

cpt.sam wrote:Can anyone provide a better source than CARs 602.133 on why french is acceptable?
Of course, if the controller is french, and all the traffic is french, the point is moot. However, when not everyone speaks french, how is it that it's ok for a foreign language to be used aviation.
Again, if everything were radar controlled and whatnot, the point again would be moot.
BUT...When you fly into non radar environments, not knowing what any other aircraft is saying, or what the controller is saying, trying to get a word in edgewise to ask WHAT THE F%CK is going on, where is the traffic, and not getting the satisfaction of knowing you and your pax are safe because of language barrier........That's not safe.
It's like taking all your situational awareness away, it's not safe!

And before you francophones start...
I am NOT AGAINST FRENCH.
I am against idiotic use of brain cells.
Pilots speak english....all of us!
Controllers speak english... all of em!
If there is someone on the frequency that does not speak french, ENGLISH should be used.... It's not cuz English is the language of aviation. It's common sense.
And with your "Superior" problems analysis/solving skill that you have just shown us, why speaking french in a french province would be more dangerous than flying NORDO in a non radar environment. Seen and being seen. Do you know what that mean??? And BTW, if you feel that flying in those kind of place where you could encounter those strange things that speak "french", :roll: :| you have the right to stay away of these VERY dangerous area. :roll:

Shhhh, i will reveal you something very "top secret"... Dont tell it to anyone... It is not everybody in this country, and on this planet" that speak English... And you know what? They have the right to fly, just like you!!! :? :smt014

Someone that state:
cpt.sam wrote: And before you francophones start...
And then say:
cpt.sam wrote: I am NOT AGAINST FRENCH.
I am against idiotic use of brain cells.
Pilots speak english....all of us!

It is not a very good way to start a respectful conversation on the subject and earn the respect of your french comrade!!! :( :roll: :?

:? People should turn their keyboard 7 times before writing anything. :?
---------- ADS -----------
  

Sleeve of Wizard
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 5:31 am

Re: French in Radio

Post by Sleeve of Wizard » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:35 am

We've established that other languages are spoken on aviation frequencies elsewhere in the world. Are English Canadians the only ones in the world who complain about the second language?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Panama Jack
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3213
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 8:10 am
Location: The Sandbox

Re: French in Radio

Post by Panama Jack » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:35 am

bmc wrote:Skyguide, the Swiss ATC, controls flights over French terrritory from roughly Lyon east and Dole south. The Germans do not have the privilege to speak their native language above 10,000ft, if I'm not mistaken, due to losing the war.

Oops, you are about to open a can of worms with this statement! :twisted:
---------- ADS -----------
  

bmc
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4014
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 10:06 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: French in Radio

Post by bmc » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:51 am

Panama Jack wrote:
bmc wrote:Skyguide, the Swiss ATC, controls flights over French terrritory from roughly Lyon east and Dole south. The Germans do not have the privilege to speak their native language above 10,000ft, if I'm not mistaken, due to losing the war.

Oops, you are about to open a can of worms with this statement! :twisted:

As told to me by a controller at Skyguide, who happens to be French Canadian. It's no big secret.

Lots of Brits flying over here. There are quite a few "N" registered airplanes here as well that are often rented to US license holders. You don't hear people whining about language over here. Lots of laughter over the wearing of religious symbols. With Berlusconi out of the picture, glad to see Marois fill the empty parking spot.The world was getting too serious for while. :mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
  

cpt.sam
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:36 am

Re: French in Radio

Post by cpt.sam » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:35 am

ahramin wrote:If you're worried about it sam, learn French.
perhaps i need that rosetta rock book?
---------- ADS -----------
  

cpt.sam
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:36 am

Re: French in Radio

Post by cpt.sam » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:38 am

bmc wrote:
ahramin wrote:If you're worried about it sam, learn French.
Good suggestion. I doubt whining about it on Avcanada will change the world. It might. But I doubt it.

French is used in France and Switzerland up to 24,000 feet. English proficiency is a requirement to getting any pilots license in Europe.

This is an old topic. I'm guessing you are new to aviation, Sam?
Nope, not new
not looking to change the world on avcanada
I know many langauages are used world wide, repeating it here doesn't make any difference.
my question is;
WHY SHOULD A CONTROLLER NOT REVERT TO ENGLISH WHEN ENGLISH ONLY A/C ARE IN THE AIRSPACE?
---------- ADS -----------
  

cpt.sam
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:36 am

Re: French in Radio

Post by cpt.sam » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:41 am

boogs82 wrote:As was mentioned, French isn`t a foreign language. You might want to check the Official Languages Act where it discusses the two official languages in Canada. I`ll give a hint....French is one of them. :)
CARs 602.133
as mentioned previously, you're not a genius for discovering this
the question isn't if it's a reality or fallacy
the question is how can this detriment to safety be accepted?
---------- ADS -----------
  

cpt.sam
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:36 am

Re: French in Radio

Post by cpt.sam » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:44 am

iflyforpie wrote:Part of me wishes we were forced to listen/speak more French in Canada. My high school French has long since languished so I am embarrassed to speak or even write it, and reading Wikipedia in French only gets me so far.
French was not mandatory for me. I took last french class in grade 6 possibly :(
It would have been much easier to learn the language as a child than now
- and no comments on still being a child please, that's only true on days off!
---------- ADS -----------
  

cpt.sam
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:36 am

Re: French in Radio

Post by cpt.sam » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:51 am

fabichoux wrote:
cpt.sam wrote:Can anyone provide a better source than CARs 602.133 on why french is acceptable?
Of course, if the controller is french, and all the traffic is french, the point is moot. However, when not everyone speaks french, how is it that it's ok for a foreign language to be used aviation.
Again, if everything were radar controlled and whatnot, the point again would be moot.
BUT...When you fly into non radar environments, not knowing what any other aircraft is saying, or what the controller is saying, trying to get a word in edgewise to ask WHAT THE F%CK is going on, where is the traffic, and not getting the satisfaction of knowing you and your pax are safe because of language barrier........That's not safe.
It's like taking all your situational awareness away, it's not safe!

And before you francophones start...
I am NOT AGAINST FRENCH.
I am against idiotic use of brain cells.
Pilots speak english....all of us!
Controllers speak english... all of em!
If there is someone on the frequency that does not speak french, ENGLISH should be used.... It's not cuz English is the language of aviation. It's common sense.
And with your "Superior" problems analysis/solving skill that you have just shown us, why speaking french in a french province would be more dangerous than flying NORDO in a non radar environment. Seen and being seen. Do you know what that mean??? And BTW, if you feel that flying in those kind of place where you could encounter those strange things that speak "french", :roll: :| you have the right to stay away of these VERY dangerous area. :roll:

Shhhh, i will reveal you something very "top secret"... Dont tell it to anyone... It is not everybody in this country, and on this planet" that speak English... And you know what? They have the right to fly, just like you!!! :? :smt014

Someone that state:
cpt.sam wrote: And before you francophones start...
And then say:
cpt.sam wrote: I am NOT AGAINST FRENCH.
I am against idiotic use of brain cells.
Pilots speak english....all of us!

It is not a very good way to start a respectful conversation on the subject and earn the respect of your french comrade!!! :( :roll: :?

:? People should turn their keyboard 7 times before writing anything. :?
There's obviously going to be bias
English dudes will lean towards English
French dudes the other way
HOWEVER that is not the point.
:rolleyes:
The airport I am referring to is NOT in quebec
- but is idiotically controlled by montreal.
- I don't know why, never asked anyone... It is what it is!

If someone asks in English for position report on a conflicting aircraft... there should not be a 2-3 minute conversation in french before the translation comes to the English crew. This delay was idiotic. This is NOT the first time it's happened!
---------- ADS -----------
  

cpt.sam
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:36 am

Re: French in Radio

Post by cpt.sam » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:52 am

Panama Jack wrote:
bmc wrote:Skyguide, the Swiss ATC, controls flights over French terrritory from roughly Lyon east and Dole south. The Germans do not have the privilege to speak their native language above 10,000ft, if I'm not mistaken, due to losing the war.

Oops, you are about to open a can of worms with this statement! :twisted:
I think I remember another lost war....
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
ragbagflyer
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 711
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:45 pm
Location: Somewhere rocky or salty.

Re: French in Radio

Post by ragbagflyer » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:02 am

Sleeve of Wizard wrote:We've established that other languages are spoken on aviation frequencies elsewhere in the world. Are English Canadians the only ones in the world who complain about the second language?
As far as feeling entitled that the rest of the world speak to us in our own language we are probably ranked second only to Americans.

Sam, if you are in any kind of controlled of environment (radar or not) where the controllers speak English and French you have nothing to be concerned about. You don't need to understand what all the other aircraft are saying; the controller will inform you of any pertinent information in English. If you're in uncontrolled airspace where people are speaking French just learn some French. A little humility will go a long way.

In Quebec do they still use the English phonetic alphabet to identify aircraft registration?
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
Beefitarian
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 6448
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:53 am
Location: Lurking

Post by Beefitarian » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:05 pm

cpt.sam wrote: WHY SHOULD A CONTROLLER NOT REVERT TO ENGLISH WHEN ENGLISH ONLY A/C ARE IN THE AIRSPACE?
I can't think of a reason, especially in Canada. I could imagine someone doing it to make a point maybe. I can imagine a fair amount of people in Alberta doing the exact same thing with English. I don't understand why but people can be militant about languages.
cpt.sam wrote: There's obviously going to be bias
English dudes will lean towards English
French dudes the other way
HOWEVER that is not the point.
:rolleyes:
The airport I am referring to is NOT in quebec
- but is idiotically controlled by montreal.
- I don't know why, never asked anyone... It is what it is!

If someone asks in English for position report on a conflicting aircraft... there should not be a 2-3 minute conversation in french before the translation comes to the English crew. This delay was idiotic. This is NOT the first time it's happened!
That sounds pretty serious and not very good. I don't know if I understand what happened though. Did the person who knew where the other planes were, only speak French and explained the positions to a third person, who then translated it to English after getting all the information?
---------- ADS -----------
  

TG
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1672
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 11:32 am
Location: Around

Re: French in Radio

Post by TG » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:39 pm

cpt.sam wrote: WHY SHOULD A CONTROLLER NOT REVERT TO ENGLISH WHEN ENGLISH ONLY A/C ARE IN THE AIRSPACE?
Bonjour!

In your particular case, it wasn't English speaking only aircraft in this airspace.
If all aircraft were to talk in English ? Of course the controller would do it in English!

All in all, it isn't the controller choice!

In a bilingual ATC environment like the one you where in:
If an aircraft start talking French to the ATC, the controller will label its flight progress strip in whatever way to identify it as French speaking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_progress_strip I believe they just highlight it with a yellow marker.
He will continue to speak in French to this aircraft unless its French speaking crew decide otherwise
by asking specifically to revert in English.

I repeat: by asking specifically to revert in English.

So in your case:
Yes, the French speaking crew could have swapped in English to give their position report.
The controller would then forward it to you.
But he would also have to ask the initially French speaking crew if they wanted to revert their transmissions in English.
I suspect a yes to that for the time being.

After being done with your conflict:
If the French speaking crew wanted to continue in French they would have to specifically ask for it again!
You just cannot swap languages like this here and there with the same controller, it need a confirmation.




Bonne nuit! :mrgreen:
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”