So What or Who Is A "Co-Captain?

[single_swine_herder]

A few days ago, I was scrunched up in the back of one of Westjet Encore's Q-400's and Captain Heather welcomed the passengers on-board in a professional manner, and indicated that "Co-Captain John," was flying with her.

So, I've known that the term "Co-Captain was some kind of aviation slang dreamed up to indicate that two Captains were flying up front..... of course, only one is the Designated Pilot In Command, the other acting as a First Officer.

The term "Co-Captain" could not be found in any document describing Canadian aviation lexicon until a few years ago when the definition was added to the CARs to indicate that would be the name applicable to the First Officer who is "acting" as PIC in accordance with a PIC Under Supervision Program designed to get an F/O enough PIC flight time credits to apply for an ATPL, and then upgrade to the PIC position within the company.

"In the olden days," I've heard of it derisively referred to as "The Chief Pilot's Nephew Upgrade Program" because in the previous world of major airline hiring, "the right person" (almost always a relative) could get hired based on bare minimum Commercial Licence and ME Class but then had no way to upgrade to designated PIC due to not enough time to qualify for an ATPL.

So, I wonder if the "F/O John" was acting as a PIC with Captain Heather doing observation and training as a part of the PIC Under Supervision Program, or was Heather undergoing Line Indoc or check under the supervision of "Capt John," ..... or was Captain John assigned to act as an F/O due to crew shortages after being trained in right seat duties .... was it something else? Did they both get assigned to the aircraft thinking they were a two Captain team and they play a game of paper, scissors, rock to make decisions?

Ultimately, if something were to happen .... who would end up in the Chief Pilot's office with some 'splainin' to do?

Oh, and on the flight .... the 53 minute block to block leg was comfortable. On the 1.3 hour leg, I was beginning to feel like I should go direct to the bone cracker for a spine realignment.

[iflyforpie]

I'm a 'driver'.

[J31]

Most likely line indoc or a line check. In that case the training or check pilot in the right seat is the PIC.

I think it would be unlikely that two captains would be paired together as the right seat pilot would require right seat training. I do not think Encore is doing this. If that were the case then the pilot in the left seat will be PIC.

Oh and Captain John is the Chief Pilot!

[GRK]

It's rubbish…there's only one PIC…the term is ill conceived and is only there to soothe someones ego…it's like BA or CX or EK using the term "senior" Captain or "senior" First Officer Smith or Jones…there is no such rank, you're either a Captain or a First Officer…ok now that I have that off my chest, let's talk about that PA...

[North Shore]

My understanding, having talked to Captain Heather before she went to WJE, was that the first few G/S classes were all direct-entry captains, as there were few airframes, and (relatively) many people. As the airline grows, all of those captains will get their own birds, complete with an f/o. Until then, you get two left-seat rated people flying together, and thus co-captain.

[Schooner69A]

In the company for whom I toiled down East, we were all co-captains. By that I mean, the company only hired experienced people and when you went on the line, you were at "captain" status. The seats were swapped every leg; on an outbound trip, your were Captain/PF; on the return flight, you were co-pilot/PNF. Worked well.

John

[single_swine_herder]

GRK .... perfect answer.

When the aircraft leaves the barn and is signed out to the assigned and designated PIC, it's done in one name only, not a group effort. Further, whatever seat the aircraft is operated from at any moment has zero to do with who is the designated PIC.

As the excellent Ron (Class 2) Clayton explained to me a few decades ago ........ if there was a Charge Parade, there will only be one person in front of the CO ..... that's the designated PIC. He and he alone carries the can and gets the glory (if there is any such thing.) The rest is just fluff to protect somebody's overblown ego from being bruised and causing him to cry.

[frozen solid]

There's no such thing as a "co-captain". I've actually seen the word "co-captain" stenciled under the copilot's window on some garishly painted charter airline 737 in the states. It's a touchy-feely pseudo-word that's designed to create a "we're all equal here" sort of mentality, sort of like how Wal-Mart calls all their employees "associates". From the desk-jockey point of view, pilots are all entry-level employees, so how can one of them really have any sort of authority over the other? They want to dispel any notion of there being a hierarchy among the hourly-paid help. I'll bet you a dollar that Encore tells the flight attendants to refer to all the pilots like that. They're probably not allowed to call the co-pilot a "co-pilot". Some marketing genius probably thought the "optics" would be better if everybody was a gee-whiz "Captain".

Hey, they're doing it on cruise ships, too. Not content to be called the "first officer" anymore, the chief officer is now called the "staff Captain". Some other lesser watch-keeping schmuck gets to be the three-striper now.

[complexintentions]

It's rubbish…there's only one PIC…the term is ill conceived and is only there to soothe someones ego…it's like BA or CX or EK using the term "senior" Captain or "senior" First Officer Smith or Jones…there is no such rank, you're either a Captain or a First Officer…ok now that I have that off my chest, let's talk about that PA...

Well, actually, in airlines that have cadet pilots, the reason for the designation "Senior First Officer" has to do with the fact that cadets do have lower ranks than regular first officers, due their lower experience and frozen licences, etc. The one-stripers can only fly with training captains and the two-stripers have to have a certain amount of qualifications before they can fly with regular line captains as well. So they can't really all be called "First Officers" because there is a very large differentiation in what they can legally do. The Senior First Officer title has to be earned, just like Captain. Hardly an ego thing.

So yeah, there is such a rank. Can't speak to the "Senior Captain" title as we don't use that one, but willing to bet that there is a history behind it as well, not just "rubbish" or "ego" as you dismiss it. Most likely it's just what CX call their TRI and TRE's. Does everyone get bent out of shape when managers with different job descriptions in other industries have different titles assigned by their employers?

There IS an industry outside of Canada, you know. Open your mind.

[BE20 Driver]

North Shore hit the nail on the head. The first 50 people hired were all Captain qualified and checked in both seats. These people will be the Captains, Check Pilots, Training Captains etc as the company grows. They have only recently started hiring FO's that don't have the time or qualifications to get upgraded immediately.

Captain and PIC are mutually exclusive. In this case, you probably had 2 of the first 50 people flying together, whether it be for a check ride, or just scheduling/logistics. I'm sure a professional organization like WJ will be very specific in their Ops Manual or SOP's that states unequivocally that the person occupying the left seat is the actual PIC responsible for the flight.

[CLguy]

I'm not sure what is so hard to understand. Where I work I am a Senior Captain which just means I have many years of seniority as a Captain and am paid accordingly. I have also flown as Co-Captain many times in the past. When I was in the right seat I did First Officer duties and logged the time as second-in-command but was still paid and held the position of Senior Captain. The Captain in the left seat is delegated PIC. If we switch seats the roles and responsibilities reverse but the pay and benefits associated remain the same for both Captains. Just because you are doing a trip in the right seat doesn't mean you actually get demoted to First Officer status and hold the rank of First Officer. The only thing that changes is the seat you sit in, your duties and responsibilities for that particular trip and how you log the time. In order for a Company to fly 2 Captains together, the guy in the right seat has to have completed Right Seat Conversion Training.

I also work for a company that has Junior Co-Pilots and Senior Co-Pilots. The junior guys have 2 stripes and the senior guys have 3 stripes. It is all based on time and experience. Of course the salaries are also based accordingly.

[Schooner69A]

CLGuy: Your situation is similar to that under which I was employed. That company's Ops manual - like many others, I would expect, dictated that for every trip, a Captain and a First Officer would be designated, regardless of the seat in which they sat.

In the airline business, if a "Captain" is occupying the right seat, a more suitable phrase might be "Our pilot today is Captain XXX in the left seat ably assisted by Captain YYY on the right".

That way, nobody's hot button would be pushed...?

John

[JayVee]

By the sounds of things, some newly minted captains on here are dead set against the term co-captain.

Not sure why all the big fuss. Manhood being threatened perhaps.

Where I work when two captains fly together, the most senior is the pic regardless of which seat they occupy. As CLGuy said, pay and status isn't affected. Maybe just egos.

[frozen solid]

It's funny you should mention egos, since the opposite point of view is also valid: Ego seems to be the motivating factor behind some peoples' idea that "captain" is their "rank" at the company, rather than just in the cockpit, and therefore feel that their status and pay level entitle them to be called "captain" even when they are acting as a first officer. I don't see why the fact that you could be a captain changes the fact that today, for whatever reason, you are a first officer. Talk to me about egos. I mean if it makes you feel better, and you feel that you have a "rank" outside of your position in the crew you happen to presently be a part of, I guess you could instruct whoever is operating the P.A. to say something like "the first officer today is Captain so-and-so." I guess that might be nice.

My objection to the word "co-captain" is grammatical, or perhaps semantic. The prefix "co" just basically means "the other guy". As in "cohort" or "co-conspirator". There's actually no implicit hierarchy when using this term. In purely semantic terms, the captain is the first officer's "co-pilot", just as the opposite is true. But when you say "captain", that's the guy legally in charge, regardless of his "rank" at the company. The same way that in the war the "captain" of a Lancaster was the pilot, regardless of the fact that he may have been a sergeant and one of the gunners could have been an officer. By definition there can't be two "captains". The word "Co-captain" is a non-sequitur. If your pay and seniority are compelling your ego to demand to be called "captain" no matter what you happen to be doing (you can get this title on your mail too if you are persistent about it) then a more correct term for you when you aren't the pilot-in-command might be "vice-captain"

I have the feeling that current thought in management is that they don't really care for the non-management scum to be dividing themselves into hierarchical categories, and they are pleased by meaningless terms like "co-captain" because it obfuscates the division of authority and responsibility. Office people spend most of their time worrying about the visibility of their positions relative to each other, and preening themselves with grandiose titles. At the same time we are encouraged to feel silly about getting our panties in a bunch about something as silly as "who is the Captain". Nobody needs to know who is in charge on a plane. Do they?

[Chaxterium]

I'm rated in the left seat of my aircraft. When I'm in the left seat I'm the captain. When I'm in the right seat I happily refer to myself as "The Captain's Bitch". Doesn't hurt my ego one bit. Same pay. None of the responsibility.

[x15]

Capt Heather is awesome!

[switchflicker]

By the sounds of things, some newly minted captains on here are dead set against the term co-captain.

Not sure why all the big fuss. Manhood being threatened perhaps.

Single Swine Herder, are you a newly minted captain or just a mint? How 'bout your manhood>

[Colonel Sanders]

All this crap is why I like single seat aircraft.

[JayVee]

Glad to see you're flicking single swine herder's switches.

[single_swine_herder]

By the sounds of things, some newly minted captains on here are dead set against the term co-captain.

Not sure why all the big fuss. Manhood being threatened perhaps.

Single Swine Herder, are you a newly minted captain or just a mint? How 'bout your manhood>

Switchflicker:

My initial question was posed to promote discussion, bring forward opinions and build concensus ....(hows that for mewling drivel?) I have done this mainly because there is so much misunderstanding of the concept of the simple matter of who is PIC, is that responsibility/designation ever shared, does it have anything at all to do with "I'm in the left seat and therefore wear the crown of the PIC and all my serfdom subjects had best behave, or its off with their heads!"

The inappropriately invented and applied term "Co-Captain" didn't exist in Canadian definitions until relatively recently. Now that it does, it refers to a person who is "playing the role of a Captain" in a King or Queen for a day sort of role for the purposes of getting the kind of experience required for the licence. Kind of like doing a 300 Nm solo cross country with an instructor sitting beside you but he promises to not say anything.

The PIC is the person assigned to the flight .... not the gaggle of people standing around ..... not the pair of Captains and they flip a coin per flight ...... the person that is responsible in the chain of command and control of the company to authorize flights based upon the schedule.

I'm neither newly minted Captain, nor is pretty much anything of me or mine mint anything any more .... LOL