Information Sessions - College of Pilots of Canada

[Pilot Research]

Dear AvCanada Pilots

The College of Professional Pilots of Canada is working to set up our own self-governing, professional standards organization the same as teachers, engineers, architects, doctors, lawyers, and accountants have. In an effort to increase our visibility and reach out to new members, we have developed a Cross-Country schedule of Information Sessions starting in January, 2014. These free events are open to all pilots or potential future pilots that:

■are considering joining the College but need more information first
■have never heard of the College before
■have concerns about the College

A board member will be present at all of the following functions to address any concerns you may have regarding this initiative and they will be happy to dispel any misinformation that may be circulating regarding the role of the College.

Each event features a presentation (45 minutes), Question & Answer period (up to 30 minutes), and a closing Meet & Greet (45 minutes). The Meet & Greet is a great networking opportunity for students or junior pilots to meet senior pilots and get invaluable career advice. All start times are 7pm local (except for Castlegar, BC on Feb. 24th which starts at 1pm).

January 13 (Mon.) - Coastal Pacific Aviation, Abbotsford Airport - Greater Vancouver, BC

January 14 (Tues.) - Victoria Flying Club, Victoria Airport - Victoria, BC

January 15 (Wed.) - Pro-IFR, Boundary Bay Airport - Greater Vancouver, BC

January 20 (Mon.) - Mount Royal University, Lincoln Park Campus – Calgary, AB (NOT at the Springbank Airport).
We will be in room EA1031 of the EA building.

January 21 (Tues.) - Mitchinson Flying Service, Saskatoon Airport – Saskatoon, SK

January 27 (Mon.) - Namao Flying Club, Villeneuve Airport - Greater Edmonton, AB

January 30 (Thurs.) - Seneca College, Newnham Campus - Greater Toronto, ON (NOT at the Buttonville Airport & NOT at the Peterborough Airport).
We will be in room A1531 of the A building.

February 3 (Mon.) - Confederation College, Thunder Bay Airport - Thunder Bay, ON.
We will be in room 221 of the Aviation Centre of Excellence.

February 6 (Thurs.) - Rockcliffe Flying Club, Rockcliffe Airport - Ottawa, ON

February 24 (Mon.) - Selkirk College, Castlegar Airport Campus, Castlegar, BC
1pm start time unlike every other presentation that starts at 7pm.

February 26 (Wed.) - Okanagan College, Kelowna, BC (NOT at the Kelowna Airport)
We will be in room E202.

March 3 (Mon.) - Sault College, Sault Ste. Marie, ON.
We will be in room M1220 of the new M-wing, also referred to as the Essar Hall building (NOT at the Canadian Sault Ste. Marie airport).

March 6 (Thurs.) - Jazz Aviation Hangar, Halifax-Stanfield Airport - Halifax, NS
We will be in Classroom B at 310 Goudey Drive.

March 10 (Mon.) - Harv's Air Pilot Training, St. Andrews Airport - Greater Winnipeg, MB


If you cannot attend any of these sessions but would like additional material to see what you missed, feel free to email: mikezaytsoff@collegeofpilots.ca. If you agree with the idea of pilots self-governing our profession, please consider forwarding this post to your non-member friends and co-workers to help spread the word.

Thank you for your time and have a safe and happy new year.

Sincerely,

The College of Professional Pilots of Canada

[Pavese]

All of the professions you list do not have regulated, non-professional participants in the way that aviation has, how do you plan to govern non-professional pilots (private, non-commercial)? You can't have two organizations (TC & you) setting the rules and standards.

Will your college issue degrees & diplomas?

Why do you offer information meetings for only part of the country (Cross-Country=BC to Ontario)? What about the rest of the country?

D

[Colonel Sanders]

There isn't a single problem in Canada that can't be
solved with more bureaucracy.

[flatface]

Deleted

[Brown Bear]

I operate with a licence issued by a branch of the CDN government. Every pilot from any country is operating on a licence issued by their government. These governments set the rules and regulations. Nothing is perfect , but it will be a bloody cold day in Hell, before I recognize ANY rules, regulations or codes of conduct imposed on me by any other "governing" body.

[Colonel Sanders]

No one cares, but pilots don't need a fancy-pants "college".

What pilots need is a good old-fashioned blue collar
teamsters-style union. Not to protect themselves from
the dreaded and hated company management, but from
undercutting each other and offering to fly "for free", or
poverty wages.

You want to know what the problem is? Look in the mirror.

Every pilot is willing to undercut every other pilot in Canada
and work for less, for his own personal advancement. That's
human nature. And that leads to really horrible wages and
unsafe working conditions.

Google "OPEC" and learn from the masters of commodity pricing.

[Brown Bear]

No one cares, but pilots don't need a fancy-pants "college".

What pilots need is a good old-fashioned blue collar
teamsters-style union. Not to protect themselves from
the dreaded and hated company management, but from
undercutting each other and offering to fly "for free", or
poverty wages.

You want to know what the problem is? Look in the mirror.

Every pilot is willing to undercut every other pilot in Canada
and work for less, for his own personal advancement. That's
human nature. And that leads to really horrible wages and
unsafe working conditions.

Google "OPEC" and learn from the masters of commodity pricing.

Yup yup yup YUP!!
What he said. Smell the roses people, and pull your heads out of your asses!
We are NOT Doctors.....we ARE blue collar workers. We should all be voting NDP!

[ditar]

You want to know what the problem is? Look in the mirror.

Every pilot is willing to undercut every other pilot in Canada
and work for less, for his own personal advancement.

In spite of this being a widespread problem for sure, such a blanket statement is both inaccurate and unfair. I know what my value is and have negotiated my salary accordingly. When potential employers have been unwilling to offer something appropriate, I have walked away.

[teacher]

No one cares, but pilots don't need a fancy-pants "college".

What pilots need is a good old-fashioned blue collar
teamsters-style union. Not to protect themselves from
the dreaded and hated company management, but from
undercutting each other and offering to fly "for free", or
poverty wages.

You want to know what the problem is? Look in the mirror.

Every pilot is willing to undercut every other pilot in Canada
and work for less, for his own personal advancement. That's
human nature. And that leads to really horrible wages and
unsafe working conditions.

Google "OPEC" and learn from the masters of commodity pricing.

All the reasons you listed make the point that we need a strong College with a equally strong code of ethics that MUST be adhered to. Break the code of ethics get reprimanded. Continue to break the code, lose your license. How's that for protecting the profession from itself.

[BTyyj]

A number of experienced members here seem to be very quick to point fingers at the new members of the pilot work force, the ones who have had to take low paying positions to get any sort of experience, for all the industry's issues. Yet these same experienced members are opposed to taking any sort of meaningful step towards reversing this trend.

May I ask, how in your opinion should we go about improving work conditions in this industry then?

Teamsters-style union? I doubt the pilot group would get much public support. The average-joe thinks pilots are taking home $200 000 a year working ten days a month.

If you think that the inexperience pilots will give up their ambitions of making this a career and stop taking low paying entry level positions, just because some experienced guys said they should, give your head a shake. The undercutting issue is not exclusive to aviation, and I'd argue it's pretty much inclusive of any industry where there's a far greater supply than demand.

[Gino Under]

A Society or College formed by any group intending to improve their profession isn't necessarily a governing body or a dictatorial rule making organization OR the issuer of licences. It should be whatever the members make of it.

In any event, you can either join and support it, or not. The childish remarks benefit no one.

Obviously, the CPPC is in it's early genesis. I believe it is for professional pilots and those pilots who believe that the piloting of an aircraft somehow reaches a level beyond the definition of any "blue collar" label.

As a working professional pilot, I am definitely NOT a blue collar worker. I have more respect for colleagues who fly aeroplanes for a living and for myself than to consider either of us anything but white collar professionals.

Works for me.

As for info sessions, I'm sure the country will be covered over time.

For those starting out, we all need to contribute to not only preserving the profession (profession, as in paid to fly) but also our industry. Which some have already eluded to, needs protection from itself. We each work in different areas of this industry so not everyone is unionized, not everyone is able to solve the issues we face as an individual. The CPPC deserves a life, deserves our support and deserves our creativity to help it become an effective alternative to what presently doesn't exist. The cheap shots and smug remarks would be of greater value if they were words to express what the CPPC could become.

Give that some thought. Sarcasm and ridicule is easy. Intelligence takes more thought.

They have my support.

Gino

[Pilot Research]

There isn't a single problem in Canada that can't be
solved with more bureaucracy.

That is definitely a concern we have heard from several pilots. I do love this country but somedays it seems like there is a bureaucracy for everything. Another bureaucracy is not what the College of Pilots is working towards. We are looking to take over parts of our profession that are run by the government, and with input from all commercial & ATPL pilots, form procedures that are safe and realistic at the same time. We have all encountered situations in our piloting careers where, for example, the law says one thing, ATC says another, and SOPs say another. Right now, there is no real voice in there to support all pilots and say, it is a requirement of my profession to use my best judgment for the safety of my passengers and here is what I'm going to do.

We are trying to build an organization that has the ability to make definitive statements about what the right thing to do in our profession is to support pilots, not micro-manage them.

[Pilot Research]

Why do you offer information meetings for only part of the country (Cross-Country=BC to Ontario)? What about the rest of the country?

D

First let me sincerely apologize that the presentation schedule does not go beyond the Ontario border or north of the 60th parallel. I know pilots from Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, PEI, Newfoundland & Labrador, Nunavut, NWT & the Yukon and I think highly of all of them. No offense was intended, although I can see why people would be upset. We did attempt to get venues in Montreal, Quebec City, Chicoutimi, Moncton, Halifax, St. John's, NF, etc., but unfortunately they all fell through. That said, we have every intention of reaching every province and territory in the next cross-country presentation schedule that will likely begin in September, 2014.

Even though the presentation schedule may not look as regionally diverse as it could, please understand we do have good regional representation at the board level and advisory committee level. Our board and advisory committee members currently live/work or have lived/worked in every single province or territory.

Where we are low on members is from helicopter pilots, floatplane pilots and pilots working in the territories, so that is something we will work to address.

[Colonel Sanders]

greater value if they were words to express what the CPPC could become

Here ya go. What you need is a bare-knuckle brawler like
Jimmy Hoffa to lead the union, and keep undercutting pilots
in line.

That's how you would improve wages & workplace conditions.

Try to remember that pilots are heavy equipment operators.

[Pavese]

All of the professions you list do not have regulated, non-professional participants in the way that aviation has, how do you plan to govern non-professional pilots (private, non-commercial)? You can't have two organizations (TC & you) setting the rules and standards.

Will your college issue degrees & diplomas?

Why do you offer information meetings for only part of the country (Cross-Country=BC to Ontario)? What about the rest of the country?

D

First let me sincerely apologize that the presentation schedule does not go beyond the Ontario border or north of the 60th parallel. I know pilots from Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, PEI, Newfoundland & Labrador, Nunavut, NWT & the Yukon and I think highly of all of them. No offense was intended, although I can see why people would be upset. We did attempt to get venues in Montreal, Quebec City, Chicoutimi, Moncton, Halifax, St. John's, NF, etc., but unfortunately they all fell through. That said, we have every intention of reaching every province and territory in the next cross-country presentation schedule that will likely begin in September, 2014.

Even though the presentation schedule may not look as regionally diverse as it could, please understand we do have good regional representation at the board level and advisory committee level. Our board and advisory committee members currently live/work or have lived/worked in every single province or territory.

Where we are low on members is from helicopter pilots, floatplane pilots and pilots working in the territories, so that is something we will work to address.

What about recreational pilots and there thus being more than one regulator of the practice, how do you intend to deal with that issue? In the professions quoted there are no recreational practitioners of the art but as pilots there are.

D

[Brown Bear]

No one cares, but pilots don't need a fancy-pants "college".

What pilots need is a good old-fashioned blue collar
teamsters-style union. Not to protect themselves from
the dreaded and hated company management, but from
undercutting each other and offering to fly "for free", or
poverty wages.

You want to know what the problem is? Look in the mirror.

Every pilot is willing to undercut every other pilot in Canada
and work for less, for his own personal advancement. That's
human nature. And that leads to really horrible wages and
unsafe working conditions.

Google "OPEC" and learn from the masters of commodity pricing.

All the reasons you listed make the point that we need a strong College with a equally strong code of ethics that MUST be adhered to. Break the code of ethics get reprimanded. Continue to break the code, lose your license. How's that for protecting the profession from itself.

The mighty college has no intention of addressing pay scales or working conditions. They've stated as much in previous posts. These are the issues pointed out by CS. We need a union, NOT a college. At least an association. What exactly is this famous code of ethics? Develop a code of ethics for operators to prevent the wholesale screwing of young pilots, (read the thread on North WRONG Air) and we'll talk. Until then...um, what's on TV?

[Pilot Research]

To the college, why not publish your constitution here? My concerns may be premature but once the college is up and running, it will be too late to put in safeguards that may limit the power and control the executive level come to take as their birthright.

How are the executives selected? The president? What are the term limits? How are the salaries decided? Does the president surround himself with executives that he alone appoints, and do these executives then elect him and reelect him over and over again for life? What are the recall rules? Do you have recall rules?

The reason I ask these questions is, as this college matures, the agenda can get away from the rank and file and if the executive level end up being life time executives of this college (just as many organizations have devolved to) they no longer feel accountable and then the whole point of this exercise is wasted.

With the advent of the internet and smart phones in every hand and every household, every decision, every question, can be resolved with a referendum in almost real time. This would be true democracy and almost eliminate the power structure within the college and leave only the requirement for individuals to maintain the system and not control it, contol would be left in the hands of the rank and file.

Those are all very good points and I will try to get to all of them. First, there are 10 board members who were all elected in October, 2013 for 2 year terms. Before that, it was an interim, appointed board that attempted to be diverse based on the segment of the industry they came from and region of the country. Back then, executive positions (President, Vice-President, Secretary-Treasurer) were assigned by group consensus, and who wanted to do what position. After the elected board met for the first time, those board members voted on who would hold what executive positions. The interim President and interim Vice-President were not challenged for re-taking those positions. The general consensus was based upon the workload in front of us, the organization would have been worse off to change the people in these positions. The Secretary-Treasurer resigned to focus his efforts on setting up a Loss of Income Insurance program for pilots that do not have one. (More on that later). The Secretary-Treasurer position was split into a Secretary position and a Treasurer position. One person put their name down for the Secretary position so they were acclaimed. Two board members wanted to be the Treasurer so they presented their financial qualifications to the rest of the board, then left the room as the remaining members voted on who would take that position.

We don't have a specific constitution document, but we do have similar documents you can find under the "About" tab at www.collegeofpilots.ca. With regard to your concern about the College being set up behind closed doors and then it being too late to change things before the College is legislated into action, I don't think that is something to worry about at this point. The reason being, this presentation we are putting on is about the vision and the goals of where we think the College should eventually go. We are not presenting to the audience that the College is already 100% set up and now you have to decide if you agree with us. What we are presenting is a case for why we think we need a college and what a college would do for our profession. We are asking pilots if they agree with the principle that we should run our own profession, then to join our organization. If pilots do not agree, then we are asking why? So we can address those concerns and make something more palatable to them. I have worked in other volunteer organizations where the leadership did not consult with the membership before asking them to vote on proposals they poured a whole bunch of work into. The proposals were defeated for a variety of reasons, but had the leadership done some consulting, perhaps they would have passed. So that is what we are trying to do with this presentation: Consult pilots to see if they agree to the principle of running our own profession. It goes without saying that pilots have huge expertise levels on a wide range of issues. If we do not take those viewpoints into account, the college will run into trouble. As a hokey example, think of the College this way: it is like a new building under construction where part of the frame is up. Now we are asking our fellow members of our profession to work with us to finish the framing and interior.

As for pay, we are all volunteer members who do not collect paycheques. In fact for me personally, I took a 56% paycut to join the board and setup this presentation schedule. My company was overstaffed with pilots, so they negotiated with the union and offered reduced schedules/leaves to pilots who wanted one. I took a reduced schedule to give myself more time for this board work, and it also prevents a junior pilot from potentially getting laid off. When I travel on College business, I use Expedia to find myself the cheapest hotel. This was never intended to be an organization where the leadership gets rich from the membership dues. It is intended for pilots that want to advance their profession and help their fellow pilots. Any College member can run for the board positions and eventually (5 to 10 years down the road) they may receive a minimal compensation. But as for right now, no board or committee member is paid.

I completely sympathize with your concerns regarding future authoritarian leadership. We currently do not have a recall mechanism but if that is what the membership wants we will obey their wishes. Right now though to be honest, a significant number of volunteers burn out before their terms expire due to the difficulty in trying to set up this type of organization from the ground up, working a regular job, and raising a family at the same time.

And yes, organizations that lose touch with their memberships are a huge problem. I have certainly seen that in companies I have worked for and governments I have lived under. Just look at these Senators and their expense claims. It's disgusting. One item our membership consistently told us was the number one thing the College needs was a loss of income protection program for junior pilots that do not have one where they work. The concern was if a junior pilot is up on some rickety ladder fueling, slips and breaks their leg, how do they fund their student debt without declaring bankruptcy? I can't say for certain when this insurance package will be in place, but it is coming. We are not going to give up on it.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[GARRETT]

I'm not sure if this college thing will work out or not, I hope it does. What I can tell you is that what we as a pilot group are doing, or not doing, isn't working. This profession is on a downward slide with lower wage scales and declining working conditions.(WJE) Sitting around and bitching about it doesn't seem to be an effective solution. Lets show a little respect to these volunteer pilots for at least making an effort to improve our profession and make it viable career option for future aviators.

[Gino Under]

It seems a few here are thinking unionize everybody and dictate terms and conditions to employers wishing to hire Canadian professional pilots if things are ever to improve and that's what a college of pilots should be or it's a waste of time and money. Well, the reality is, no one polices' a pilot union.

Unionized pilot groups usually achieve nothing more than increased selfish bickering with their employer, usually resulting in elevated animosity between the two and achieving very little happiness for either once the ink on a CBA is dry.
It's never enough and certainly not my preferred way of improving the profession.


To me, thinking of a college in this way is nothing more than wasted conversation. Let the pilot unions reside where they reside and fight whatever battles and beefs they have with their employer.

No professional guild, society, association or 'college' would gain industry respect, value, or credibility if it's only function or mandate was to initiate labour unrest or confrontation until it won the battles, arguments, disputes or whatever, to get whatever it wanted out of an employer.

I would hope and believe this college idea is about professionalism, ethics, standards and encouragement of youth in the pursuit of the piloting profession along with member support in such areas as, mentoring, training, instruction, and safety. Similar to the Royal Aeronautical Society. If we set the foundation and professionally shape it into at least that, we can put into place the foundation. A place to start. Through membership and member participation it could be shaped into the college we could all use, support and probably benefit from.

It's up to the licenced pilots in Canada.
I'm in.

Cheers
Gino Under

P.S.
For the benefit of our Col. Sanders,
A blue-collar worker is a working class person who performs manual labor.
So, what's the make or break here? Autopilot no autopilot?

(wink, wink)

[x-wind]

Well said, I looking forward to meeting some comrades at one of these venues.