Co-Pilot Time Officially 1 for 1

[Rowdy]

I don't think it's going to change much. Other than say, allow for those that have spent considerable time in the right seat in 703/704 machines hold a piece of paper that in all honesty means SFA anyways.

[Navaids]

So let me get this straight. The US has just made the regs tougher for 200 hour wonders to sit in the right seat of an airliner with the 1500 hour rule. Meanwhile in Canada we are going to make it easier for them!

[frozen solid]

So let me get this straight. The US has just made the regs tougher for 200 hour wonders to sit in the right seat of an airliner with the 1500 hour rule. Meanwhile in Canada we are going to make it easier for them to sit in the LEFT seat!

There. I fixed it for you.

In all seriousness though, it was never Transport Canada that was preventing 200-hour-wonders (well, OK, 1500-hundred-hour "wonders") from menacing us all from above in charge of their very own airliners. It was the insurance companies and to a certain extent the companies and chief pilots themselves. Who TC thinks is competent is totally irrelevant. Transport Canada is a meaningless joke.

[Diadem]

So let me get this straight. The US has just made the regs tougher for 200 hour wonders to sit in the right seat of an airliner with the 1500 hour rule. Meanwhile in Canada we are going to make it easier for them!

And now pilots in both countries will have the same experience at that point. What a shock!
Whether you think 1500 hours is enough for an ATPL or not, crediting co-pilot time as half never made sense to me. Why was my experience flying instrument approaches to minima at night in icing in the Arctic worth less than going straight up and down eight times a day with skydivers in southern Ontario? Because I wasn't making decisions? I had a hell of a lot of input into the captain's decisions, because it was a multi-crew operation.
As for how this will benefit pilots, I know of a few King Air operators that require 2000 hours and an ATPL to go captain, but FOs weren't able to upgrade until they had 2700 hours. 2500 hours on type, and they were less qualified than an instructor. It would also have made a difference for me when applying for co-pilot jobs on larger aircraft that have Contrails requirements.

[davecessna]

So let me get this straight. The US has just made the regs tougher for 200 hour wonders to sit in the right seat of an airliner with the 1500 hour rule. Meanwhile in Canada we are going to make it easier for them!

Please show me a Canadian airline job posting that asks for less than 1500 hours for first officer.

[timel]

Youpee an other great reason for airlines to lower pilot standards....

[Navaids]

I'm not saying that co-pilot time should be less valuable. What I care about is the MPL system. Currently airlines require a decent amount of time for the right seat. I fear this will change in favour of cheap labour. All of our hard earned experience will count for nothing as airlines seek the lowest bidder.
Let's not kid ourselves this is the direction it's heading! Do you really think Lisa Raitts intention is to help pilots in any way? She is in the business of giving airline management what they want, and screwing general aviation in every way possible! P2F anybody?

[Navaids]

So let me get this straight. The US has just made the regs tougher for 200 hour wonders to sit in the right seat of an airliner with the 1500 hour rule. Meanwhile in Canada we are going to make it easier for them!

Please show me a Canadian airline job posting that asks for less than 1500 hours for first officer.

From college to jazz. Not many i admit, but expect that to change. All the regionals in canada will. Just as the states is putting an end to it we are just getting started.

[Koalemos]

In all seriousness though, it was never Transport Canada that was preventing 200-hour-wonders (well, OK, 1500-hundred-hour "wonders") from menacing us all from above in charge of their very own airliners. It was the insurance companies and to a certain extent the companies and chief pilots themselves. Who TC thinks is competent is totally irrelevant. Transport Canada is a meaningless joke.

QFT.

Ultimately the change will mean very little for when people actually start in the left seat.

[Doc]

I've heard the figure of 21K as a wage for right seat folks on some jet operators? Is it really that low? Won't be buying a ticket on one of these carriers anytime soon! Don't think we're likely to see a drop in quality with newly minted ATPL holders. Don't think we could.
On another note...if you are flying for anything NEAR 21K....it's YOUR fault.
As far as copilot time counting 1 for 1, it always used to, and it always has in other countries. The 50% BS started in Canada, region by region, with WGA licences being easier to get than YZA licences. Used to be X hours total time (think it was 1200?).....an hour in the air, being an hour in the air.
Since TC doesn't have the pills to issue ATPL's based on requirements of aircraft type requirements, pilots should go direct from a PPL to an ATPL, because that's all they're worth.
D

[Slats]

l can't see any eventuality where this affects me personally one way or another, but it doesn't seem like a stretch to see how this could contribute to keeping wages low in certain scenarios. In the bigger picture, it really is a bit of a discouraging sign of lowering standards, and for no good reason; the AAs were very easy to acquire as they were, what with PICUS and all. Seems to run counter to the ideal we might wish to move towards if we really want to consider ourselves true "professionals."

As an aside, seems like poor form for all the co-pilots who just won a long-anticipated "victory" to come on here and take shots at instructors.

Oh well, thankfully none of the above affects me.

[ScudRunner]

As always most of you are missing the point behind this change.

This is driven by industry and TC capitulated.

All this does is degrade the ATPL so that more pilots are "qualified" to occupy a seat creating a larger pool of candidates to fill those seats.

Not hating on FO's and such but as usual follow the money (or lack there of).

The downward spiral continues..............

[Colonel Sanders]

Other countries count right seat time 1:1,
don't they?

Regardless of the merit of the idea, I'm not
sure why we should punish young kids merely
for being Canadian.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Other countries count right seat time 1:1,
don't they?

.

Yes but they also require 500 hours in a large 2 crew certified airplane before you can hold the license. In other words they think you should actually have experience flying an "airliner" before getting your "airline" transport license.

The other thing missed in the discussion is the new FAA ATP adds some significant extra requirements including the requirement for training in a jet simulator and I believe multi PIC hours.

So the bottom line is that Canada now has the least rigourous requirements to hold the ATPL anywhere. Well Done TC

[iflyforpie]

Yep.

I used to tell anybody I could who was looking to build hours for an ATPL to go get an instructor rating. Time is all PIC, it's pretty much the only way you can get paid to log PIC night, and if you play your cards right you will have a bunch of IFR twin time by the time you are ready to write your AAs; in addition to hundreds of hours of 152 time.

But for those who knock the instructor in the 152.... I still think it provides a lot of value in comparison to sitting right seat in an IFR turbine machine. The instructor is PIC and has to exercise decision making, the F/O doesn't have the final say. Also.... a turboprop droning along between points IMHO is far more mundane for both pilots than doing circuits with a pre solo student.

[photofly]

FAA doesn't require multi-crew time.

They do require 500 x-c, but that's not hard to get.

[Chaxterium]

And also, PIC time is incredibly easy to count towards the FAA ATP. This blew me away when I found this out but under the FAA regulations PIC can be logged by a First Officer when he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls. So that means basically half the time in the right seat can be counted as PIC towards the ATP.

[schnitzel2k3]

Ok - here goes nothing. Since everyone on this board comes from different areas of the industry it's going to be tough to address eceryone's concern.

Rant starts here.

First off, people stating this is the beginning of the end (with reference to 1500 hr pilots getting their ATPs) are sounding very hypocritical and ignorant to the fact that the industry is already in shambles. The ONLY thing this changes is allowing a 1500 co-pilot the right to earn their ATPs. Are companies like GGN, CMA, Westwind, or insert-regional-here going to be able to insure a 1500 hr driver in the left seat of a 1900. No. So what changes? NOTHING. They will still need 3000+ hrs minimum to fly a Transport Category tutboprop. This industry is already in the crapshoot and there are plenty of articles referencing that fact.

What really changes is that the co-pilots will be able to write and earn their ATPs without the need to re-write said exams. That is it!

Next - and no I'm not an instructor - I started in this industry by photographing properties in a 152. Do I think a co-pilot on a large turboprop deserves the right to earn their ATPs before a guy flying a 150 in the circuit or low level. Absolutely. Why? Because they are in all essences of the word - AN AIRLINE PILOT. An instructor/vfr single/twin driver is not - and seeing as the greatest majority of instructors/vfr pilots under 1500 hrs never see IFR or perform any complex multicrew tasks makes - IMHO - those hours earned much less valuable than those earned at the hlem of a large turbine aircraft. Sure you make decisions - in the circuit and generally vfr. Most of the time spent flying is rarely in actual control of the aircraft. These guys moving up have as much to learn as a 250 hr wonder straight out of Seneca College when transitioning to the right seat of something larger than a 172/Cherokee. Not to mention deflating the instructor/rookie ego. You are by no means anything more than a Commercial pilot.

The chance to sit in the right seat of a transport turbine should be taken for what it is - a learning lesson. Hopefully you work for a decent company, with decent Captains - that give you space to learn and fly (and occasionally) make mistakes so that when you qualify for that upgrade (hours and license wise) regardless of your background - you can safely pilot your plane.

Rant over

Take care guys and let's look at this change in a positive light. I'm at 1500 hrs right now and know that I have a long long way to go before any upgrades, whether or not I have my AAs stamped in the logbook. I think too many guys make a massive deal about 1: writing and getting the AAs and 2: other guys qualifying for the AAs. There are much bigger fish to fry.

Fly Safe.

S.

[timel]

Why is it always about instructors building hours?
I did instruction, aerial survey and aerial spraying and built around +1500 hrs doing that. Than did my multi IFR.
Many did fires - parachute and other aerial Survey jobs.

Flight Schools force you into the process ... private... commercial than twin ifr - maximize the pesos and you have to keep it valid.
No hours, no money ...no job.

About decision making I guess you have it or you don't have it, than experience is gold and is about you keeping your left seat and stay alive.

Many copis just want to go captain for the pay raise I guess, some cause they want to be captain.

But I believe it's important that we do not lower time to access left seat.

Actualy their should be regulations for right seats like in USA. (for 704-705)
Already for copilots there is no more lever to negociate salaries since there are 5000 waiting behind.
Let's not make it happend for left seat.

Transport Canada is not working for pilot conditions but for the industry. The more they have the less you get.
My two cents.

[Krimson]

The ONLY thing this changes is allowing a 1500 co-pilot the right to earn their ATPs. Are companies like GGN, CMA, Westwind, or insert-regional-here going to be able to insure a 1500 hr driver in the left seat of a 1900. No. So what changes? NOTHING. They will still need 3000+ hrs minimum to fly a Transport Category tutboprop. This industry is already in the crapshoot and there are plenty of articles referencing that fact.

What really changes is that the co-pilots will be able to write and earn their ATPs without the need to re-write said exams. That is it!

I think too many guys make a massive deal about 1: writing and getting the AAs and 2: other guys qualifying for the AAs. There are much bigger fish to fry.

If you are a co-pilot on a transport category turboprop, you can write your ATPL exams and freeze them indefinitely until you achieve the time required for your licence to be signed off. This is not helping anything with your licensing.

What has happened is opened the door for the future when qualified applicants with an ATPL are scarce, the bar has been pre-lowered to allow anyone to sit left seat.

Sure it's all fun and nice to get your ATPL sooner, but what then? What's the point if you say you won't upgrade until 3000+ hours anyway, what's the mad rush to get your licence? It is short sighted, and a year after this rule goes in effect; when you would have had your ATPL regardless; I think you will be thinking another way.