WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

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Sleeve of Wizard
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by Sleeve of Wizard »

AirFrame wrote:Best response possible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1feazmJ2 ... e=youtu.be

I happily support women entering aviation... What I don't like is reverse-discrimination against men. We're going for equality, aren't we? Why do we need a women-only event?
As a "woman in aviation" myself, I agree with you 100%. I can remember wanting to be a pilot from the age of 4 or 5. This was over 30 years ago, so I'm assuming there were fewer women flying then. In fact, I never met another female pilot until I had my private licence. I somehow didn't see it as something boys did, it was something I wanted to do.

I think it's imortant that parents/educators ensure that both boys and girls know that they can have any career they can dream of. I don't understand why it's important to actively recruit women to aviation. Nor do I think it's important to celebrate the fact that we can do the same job as men do.

Girls are less attracted to careers in construction/aviation, while boys are less attracted to esthetics/nursing for example.

Having said all that, over the years I have been a "target" of all sorts of rude comments and discrimination. I don't think that increasing our numbers is the solution. I think people need to change their attitudes. (and attitudes in the flight deck have largely changed already).
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Meecka
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by Meecka »

complexintentions... For the record, gender is female. Wasn't looking for your outrage, or your sarcasm for that matter. No, I won't spell things out for you either. Thats the point. I actually agree that posting the note on the internet will change /solve, nothing. All women involved in aviation will end up having to deal with someone who thinks they have no buisness being there. You just have to ignore the majority of it as closeminded bs.
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crazy_aviator
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by crazy_aviator »

Im afraid that the women's liberation movement has gone too far,,, Society and men in general have progressed fairly well WITHOUT a knife to the throat!! I'm totally for EQUALITY in the workplace and neither race nor sex now anything else be discriminated against but when we as a society go too far the other way ( Quotas and shoving people into positions where they are NOT capable or pandering to minorities in an UNFAIR way (aboriginals-tax exempt status, unequal french language laws) then this equality thing has gone too far and in fact certain women's libbers are shooting themselves and the fairer sex in the foot !!! I Am 100% for women in ALL positions in aviation
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Donald
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by Donald »

AirFrame wrote:Best response possible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1feazmJ2 ... e=youtu.be

Except that Lisa Raitt is in the video....
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shimmydampner
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by shimmydampner »

Lack of female empowerment and equality is still a big problem in our society, even if they do have the vote. This country would be much better off - for both men and women - if we dealt with them instead of pretending that it's only the odd religious nut with extreme views who has a problem. I've already deleted a few stupid posts from this thread but maybe I should have left them to demonstrate that we still have a problem.

Because of the way we raise our girls, it's rare that they consider pilot as a career. Even when they do, sometimes we make it very hard for them for the sole reason that they are girls.

Think about how differently we treat girls from boys. We set up these problems from the time a kid is conceived.
The thing about equality is that outside of a sort of nebulus construct (noble though it may be) it doesn't actually exist. As unsavoury a reality as it may be for the white knights here, males and females on average, are not equal. That's not to say that one or the other is superior or that both shouldn't have equal opportunity to pursue their interests, but generally we're different in a number of ways that leads to advantages and interests in different areas. That's not opinion, it's scientific fact.

I'm curious to know what "these problems" are. Last I checked women have the EXACT SAME rights as men in this country. They include the right to hold whatever ridiculous belief or opinion a person might want, even it's offensive to others. That's the other thing about equality and rights: you can't have it both ways. Just because you believe your opinions are more highly evolved than someone else's doesn't mean that they aren't entitled to their's even if it is offensive to you. Classifying a person's opinion as a "problem" because it's offensive is philosophically no different than that person suggesting that women don't belong in a cockpit. Better to just ignore such opinions
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Flybabe
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by Flybabe »

shimmydampner wrote:
...
I'm curious to know what "these problems" are. Last I checked women have the EXACT SAME rights as men in this country. They include the right to hold whatever ridiculous belief or opinion a person might want, even it's offensive to others. That's the other thing about equality and rights: you can't have it both ways. Just because you believe your opinions are more highly evolved than someone else's doesn't mean that they aren't entitled to their's even if it is offensive to you. Classifying a person's opinion as a "problem" because it's offensive is philosophically no different than that person suggesting that women don't belong in a cockpit. Better to just ignore such opinions...
Maybe I ( regardless of being a pilot who has been in this illustrious industry for 21 years this year, 17 years professionally) am totally missing something, because this ^ is how I feel about it.
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by snoopy »

Meecka wrote:Women of Aviation Worldwide Week.....

I know this is a tangent to the thread, but I am curious.... Since when is Pilot the only aviation job out there? I'm constantly amazed that when there are these kind of events held the focus is on pilot, and pilot only. "Lets get more girls flying!" I never hear or see "Lets get more girls maintaining".

On topic... you would be disgusted at some of the crap that has come out of peoples mouths when they find out I am an AME. Not only from men, more often than you would think from women which just irritates the bejeezus out of me. To be honest I've just come to expect it as part of me being who I am doing what I do. Most of it I ignore as not being worth my energy to respond to, if its particularly offensive then we're going to have words, and I don't care what gender you are.
@Meecka

Women of Aviation Worldwide Week is not about just pilots. We take people flying as a catalyst - to inspire them and to get their attention. You come to my event you will see a lot of maintenance. All the maintenance techs on the Seaking are women. UFV. BCIT. One of our sponsors is a helicopter maintenance company. And ATC. YVR Airport Authority And all kinds of other stuff. If you watched any of the interviews I always make a point to include ALL vocations, and particularly maintenance as I feel it is important. So if you'd like to know more, come to my event this weekend! Rain or shine, girls and women of all ages (and their families) are flocking to the airport to discover aviation for the first time.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by aviate_77 »

This letter from a passenger is pure BS. If left and right seat are both females, who cares? They pass all the same tests as all of us, and they are fit for the job. Carry on idiot passenger...
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crazy_aviator
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by crazy_aviator »

“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart

Love that and kudos to you for your positive activism !!!!!!!
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snoopy
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by snoopy »

@crazy_aviator Thank you!!!
Cheers,
Kirsten B.
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by Stu Pidasso »

The Female Pilots that have the respect of their peers, do "The Job" and go home, just like everyone else. They aren't out flag waving the "Be All You Can Be" nonsense.

There has ( it is slowly changing ) been a huge double standard. In the days when the Airlines were smaller and the number of Female Pilots were substantially less, it took courage to face the weak links. Failing a Female Pilot would put the Check Captain in the path of an oncoming freight train.

Everyone knew which ones were notorious for CRYING discrimination.

For the record - this has nothing to do with gender. There are "weak links" on both sides and someone has to be the Gate Keeper.

Unfortunately this case of running to Facebook and the media, like a 13 year old child, has done you a dissservice.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Interesting stat I came across. Number of female PPL's in 1970 6%, number of female PPL's in 2012, 6.8 %. Seems like we haven't come very far.

On a happier note some women have just started up a Women in Aviation chapter in Victoria. They started promoting their event the day before Mr. Dufous wrote his famous note. Initial reaction from local media was "Yawn" then when the incident went public they all wanted to talk to "women in aviation" :D . Their first event was very sucessful and the media attention gave them an extra boost. 8)
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CpnCrunch
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by CpnCrunch »

Stu Pidasso wrote:
Unfortunately this case of running to Facebook and the media, like a 13 year old child, has done you a dissservice.
I wouldn't say she was 'running to facebook'. Rather she was pissed off by the idiotic note and decided to vent and have a little fun at his expense on facebook. That's pretty much what facebook is for, in case you're of the older generation who hasn't used it yet :)

I actually find it quite ironic that avcanaders are complaining about this lady venting on facebook when you (mostly) guys are the biggest bunch of whiners I've ever seen in my life :lol:
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shimmydampner
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by shimmydampner »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:Interesting stat I came across. Number of female PPL's in 1970 6%, number of female PPL's in 2012, 6.8 %. Seems like we haven't come very far.
Very far towards what exactly? Is there some quota to meet? What if all the women who want to fly and have the resources to do so simply total 6.8% ?
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by Stu Pidasso »

CpnCrunch wrote:
Stu Pidasso wrote:
Unfortunately this case of running to Facebook and the media, like a 13 year old child, has done you a dissservice.
I wouldn't say she was 'running to facebook'. Rather she was pissed off by the idiotic note and decided to vent and have a little fun at his expense on facebook. That's pretty much what facebook is for, in case you're of the older generation who hasn't used it yet :)

I actually find it quite ironic that avcanaders are complaining about this lady venting on facebook when you (mostly) guys are the biggest bunch of whiners I've ever seen in my life :lol:

That is why Corporations have "Social Media Policy" and have terminated employees for inappropriate use.

Furthermore, there are businesses that make a living out of REPAIRING individual reputations, that have self destructed on Social Media.

All brought to you by the Adult Generation.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by CpnCrunch »

Stu Pidasso wrote: That is why Corporations have "Social Media Policy" and have terminated employees for inappropriate use.
Well in my opinion it was appropriate, and Westjet seems to agree since they posted a funny send-up of it on their own facebook page.

Westjet is a reasonable company who treats their employees (and customers) like human beings.
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ahramin
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by ahramin »

shimmydampner wrote:
Big Pistons Forever wrote:Interesting stat I came across. Number of female PPL's in 1970 6%, number of female PPL's in 2012, 6.8 %. Seems like we haven't come very far.
Very far towards what exactly? Is there some quota to meet? What if all the women who want to fly and have the resources to do so simply total 6.8% ?
I can't beleive I'm having to explain math this simple to a pilot but yes: The quota is 50%.

do you really think there is something special about the anatomy of a 5 year old kid that makes the dream of flight a 93% male province? Or is it more likely that the stats are due to regressive societal norms and a lack of female role models?

Actually, since women control more than 50% of household discretionary spending, maybe it should be more than 50%. Good point shimmy.
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shimmydampner
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by shimmydampner »

You can't be serious. That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Equality isn't about math and artificial 50% quotas. Or at least it shouldn't be. It should be about equal opportunity without any barriers or restrictions based on gender, race, sexual orientation, etc. I know there are no legal restrictions to obtaining a license based on gender and I'm willing to bet there isn't an FTU in Canada that would turn away a prospective student based on gender. So, any woman with the desire and resources to obtain a license does in fact have equal opportunity.
In the same way that women should not be held back from entering aviation, neither should they be herded into it for the purpose of filling an artificial quota. If 1000 people want to become pilots and 500 are women, great. If it's only 68, but that number represents all the women who want to, then that's fine too. Expecting that every hobby or career path will attract an even gender split is silly.
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ahramin
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by ahramin »

Shimmy, you are quite correct, but think about WHY things are the way they are. I agree, the current barriers to entry for women pilots are at their lowest ever, and not significantly different from those for men. So why are so few women actually becoming pilots compared to men? Answer my previous question: Do you think the difference in dangly bits of 5 year old kids really is the leads to so many more boys to dream of flight than girls? Or is it possible that 50% of the kids who dream of flying an airplane around the sky are girls and something happens to skew those statistics later?
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Re: WestJet Captain receives passenger's sexist note

Post by complexintentions »

Why are so few women actually becoming pilots compared to men?


Why are so few men becoming teachers and nurses? Why are there many more women attending university than men? These are variations of the same question, why don't equal numbers of men and women do every job? (Except you only seem concerned with the women. Why?) I have a hard time believing exactly the same number of kids dream of the same job in perfectly equal number. Things change of course, but it certainly wasn't the case in my own childhood (not THAT long ago! heheh). It makes neither logical nor intuitive sense.

I don't believe there is any field that is divided perfectly equally by gender and some lean very heavily one way or another. As long as both genders are free to pursue whatever vocation they choose...next problem? Shimmydampner expressed it superbly.

What I don't understand is why YOU are so concerned about the lack of women in aviation, when women themselves - who by your own admission are facing "not significantly different" challenges to entry than men - are apparently not?

Do you really believe the only difference between boys and girls are the bits between their legs? The question is rhetorical, but what you believe is the answer may give you insight to your own questions about both genders' career choices.

If a little girl decides not to become a pilot because she's afraid she may receive an unkind note on a napkin, I would suggest she is probably not going to succeed at whatever she attempts. Same goes for a little boy.

And if you wish to see true "regressive societal norms", please do come visit me in Dubai. :wink:
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