Calm Air and De icing

[MUSKEG]

Timel. Fuel is delivered at whatever the ambient temperature is. Unless it's just come from an underground tank (which are far and few between). It is temperature corrected to +15 in the meter.

[Airmanship Police]

So you have been a pilot for 30 years and flew on Calm Air all winter when you knew they would fly with contaminated wings 50% of the time?

I would like to see the good decision you take when you are flying as a pilot.

Here's a hint: GET OFF THE AIRPLANE AND STOP FLYING WITH THEM!!!!


Some ppl's kids seriously.....

[bungee]

Pretty hard to do that when they are the only show in the north doing scheduled flights

[Nwtflier]

If you feel the need to post about it on avcanada then you should have felt the need to get off the airplane...or mention it to the skipper.

Don't cry wolf and then go pet it.

[Airmanship Police]

Pretty hard to do that when they are the only show in the north doing scheduled flights

Gotta get 'er done right??

At least we now know how much you value your life....

[crazy_aviator]

When TC came out with the clean wing concept, the laws of physics didnt change when the rule came into effect!!! Training schools teach to the required TC dogma and you must be taught that ANY wing contamination is UNSAFE! This is called the dumbing down of the sheeple. Dont allow the little ones to understand what is or isnt acceptable in wing contamination, just teach them to do as Air Canada does with sometimes miniscule amounts of snow on the wing, and be sure to look the other way when you are up north, because TC and their SMS system must wait for the accident to be of any help there lol

[timel]

Timel. Fuel is delivered at whatever the ambient temperature is. Unless it's just come from an underground tank (which are far and few between). It is temperature corrected to +15 in the meter.

Oups make sens! My mistake.

I was making confusion with fuel frost, cold fuel tanks in ambiant humity.
I still don't get it how you see ice on a wing on an ATR as a passenger.

[GyvAir]

I still don't get it how you see ice on a wing on an ATR as a passenger.

Must be seeing it from the jetway windows... like they have at all of Calm Air's destination airports.
Serious answer though: leading/trailing edges?

[Minimums]

705 turboprops departing with iced/frosted up wings is northern Canada's dirty little secret.

It’s not Canada’s little secret. Everyone who has ever flown in the north, knows this takes place. It has been this way for decades, and isn’t likely to change anytime soon. The problem, lies in transports inability to enforce their own rules. They are more than happy to sit in an office from 9-3, but you won’t catch them doing enforcement run’s up to norman wells or big trout lake to sit and wait for offenders. If for whatever reason they had to be up there, guaranteed it won’t be overnight, and they’ll be a fancy citation or something sitting at said airport alerting everyone to what’s going on so they can cover their ass. These guys only make 6 figures a year you know, you can’t expect them to work for it. Like any other public entity, they focus on the bulk of traffic, which is at major centers. They don’t give two cents about Island Lake or Shamattawa.

If for some reason they did manage to get their act together, there would be an awfully lot of pilots looking for a new career, and a lot of companies facing fines. My guess is that if they wanted to kick up a storm, companies would fight back for some sort of occlusion to the cars to come up with an op’s spec that states its ‘ok’ to fly with some ice as long as the pilot feels safe. Why? Because it costs big money to deice an aircraft. It takes equipment, fluid, training, personal, and other resources. You won’t see wasaya putting a deice truck in north spirit lake, or calm air doing the same in gods narrows. They simply leave it up to the crew’s discretion. This way, they can wipe their hands of any wrong doing if something happens or someone gets caught. From a company stand point, it makes sense (financially). You save money on fluid/equipment and any liability. If the flight crew chooses they can, and are expected to do with what little they have. Pilots (who many in the north are compensated with a mileage incentive) do not want to be climbing wings and rickety latters in 30mph winds at -20C with a leaky piss pack to spray a little type 1 from the impact ice their picked up on the way in. It’ll put them late for their other 12 legs of sked’s they have to complete, and get their hands all sticky. Eeww.

To get it to change, it’s got to start with transport. Companies won’t do anything to change it, because it costs money. Pilots don’t, because it’s dirty, messy (HELLO, white shirt and epilates here!), and takes time they usually don’t have. Ground crews are an option, but most are unreliable for a variety of reasons. Does it make it right? Of course not, but that’s reality.
I’ve flown in the north long enough to know it won’t change. If something bad happens, or someone gets caught, it likely will for a short amount of time, but then will slide back to the status quo within a few weeks. Try convincing a 748 driver that his airplane can’t fly with a 1/4” inch of impact ice when he’s been doing it for 30 years. Northern sked’s are usually designed with short, tight turns and long days. I’ve never seen a 1900 pilot deice his tail, EVER. Even the province of Ontario’s infamous medical savior, they’ll wipe the leading edge a bit, but never touch the tail. Everyone is guilty of it, and until someone stands up and says something, it can’t change.

As for the OP, the right thing to do is alert the flight crew. If they do something about it (likely most will, even if they are hesitant), then problem solved. Alerting them lets them know someone is watching, and that may force them to change their habits. If they don’t do anything about it, follow grey wolfs instructions and alert the proper authorities.

[Maynard]

So where exactly was the ice? How did you see the top of the wing and that it was indeed contaminated with ice? Was it clear ice from FZRA overnight, or snow melted and froze? If you flew with them that many times with ice on the wings, did it change your thoughts to flying with ice on the wings?

[CalmAir FLTOPS]

I have been on Calm Air's ATR a lot this winter and noticed they are departing with ice on the wings about 50% of the time. Its not a lot but enough that they should be de iced. What does one do as a passenger, call Transport or try to get hold of the chief pilot?

Bungee,

I appreciate your post and bringing this issue to all of our attention. I invite you to contact us directly if you have specific concerns that you would like to see addressed.

Please, feel free to contact Calm Air Flight Operations (flightoperations@calmair.com) with the details of the incidents you are referring to. Or alternatively if you feel more comfortable, you can contact me directly (bstock@calmair.com) :

The following information will greatly assist our investigation into these incidents.
1. Date
2. Time
3. Flight Number
4. Departure Airport.

This will allow us to investigate the incidents in question an help to ensure that things like this don't continue to happen.

Sincerely,

Bill Stock
Chief Pilot, Calm Air International
bstock@calmair.com
(204)956-6174

[Airmanship Police]

I would be curious to know what de-ice strategies are in place for de-icing/anti-icing in remote destinations. Equipment, personel, ect.

Not specifically aimed at Calm air but everyone who flybin these parts.

[crazy_aviator]

Now that was a wise move from Calm Air !!

[Onmyboat]

Bungee, If you have 30 years experience why would you come on avcanada to ask a question like that? I'm not sure what your agenda is but your comment is SIMPLY NOT TRUE.

[fish4life]

Personally I think that's a good and top notch move from the company, most of the "sketchy" companies seem to just get threads like these deleted instead of trying to fix a possible situation.

[boxcut]

Now that was a wise move from Calm Air !!

Bill Stock is a classy guy, and Calm Air is one of the better 705 operations out there, with good pilots and dispatch staff focused on safety.

[Mark Y.]

Whats more dangerous, frost haze or massive areas of old thick peeling paint? I am also disgusted someone would use a public forum for this discussion, especially someone who has been a pilot for 30 years. Aviation industry has enough problems without ignorant people wanting to be controlled more by big brother. All I can say is Baa

[Illya Kuryakin]

Often as passengers, we just don't get the same view of "representative" surfaces that the crew has. I've sat over the wing on a West Jet flight that went to de-ice in YWG, when I could see NO ice on any surface. With very few exceptions (Eastern European countries, the odd Caravan etc) you can put your feet up and relax.
Illya.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Whats more dangerous, frost haze or massive areas of old thick peeling paint? I am also disgusted someone would use a public forum for this discussion, especially someone who has been a pilot for 30 years. Aviation industry has enough problems without ignorant people wanting to be controlled more by big brother. All I can say is Baa

So, let's dump on the OP for bringing up a safety concern on an AVIATION FORUM? He's drawing our attention to a potential problem in, guess what, AVIATION. I should think we should read his concerns, and not dump on him for brining them up. News Flash for you Mark Y........contaminated wings HAVE caused accidents! Cut him some slack. I imagine even YOU could LEARN something?
Illya

[Maynard]

He still hasn't answered my question. How did he see the top of the wing, tail, how did he know it was full of ice? Was it thick clear ice? Was it leading edge impact? Makes a big difference. Maybe he should clarify rather than blatantly telling the world that they always rake off with ice on the wings.