Calm Air and De icing

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crazy_aviator
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by crazy_aviator »

When TC came out with the clean wing concept, the laws of physics didnt change when the rule came into effect!!! Training schools teach to the required TC dogma and you must be taught that ANY wing contamination is UNSAFE! This is called the dumbing down of the sheeple. Dont allow the little ones to understand what is or isnt acceptable in wing contamination, just teach them to do as Air Canada does with sometimes miniscule amounts of snow on the wing, and be sure to look the other way when you are up north, because TC and their SMS system must wait for the accident to be of any help there lol
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timel
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by timel »

MUSKEG wrote:Timel. Fuel is delivered at whatever the ambient temperature is. Unless it's just come from an underground tank (which are far and few between). It is temperature corrected to +15 in the meter.
Oups make sens! My mistake.

I was making confusion with fuel frost, cold fuel tanks in ambiant humity.
I still don't get it how you see ice on a wing on an ATR as a passenger.
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GyvAir
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by GyvAir »

timel wrote:I still don't get it how you see ice on a wing on an ATR as a passenger.
Must be seeing it from the jetway windows... like they have at all of Calm Air's destination airports.
Serious answer though: leading/trailing edges?
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Minimums
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Minimums »

Jean-Pierre wrote:705 turboprops departing with iced/frosted up wings is northern Canada's dirty little secret.

It’s not Canada’s little secret. Everyone who has ever flown in the north, knows this takes place. It has been this way for decades, and isn’t likely to change anytime soon. The problem, lies in transports inability to enforce their own rules. They are more than happy to sit in an office from 9-3, but you won’t catch them doing enforcement run’s up to norman wells or big trout lake to sit and wait for offenders. If for whatever reason they had to be up there, guaranteed it won’t be overnight, and they’ll be a fancy citation or something sitting at said airport alerting everyone to what’s going on so they can cover their ass. These guys only make 6 figures a year you know, you can’t expect them to work for it. Like any other public entity, they focus on the bulk of traffic, which is at major centers. They don’t give two cents about Island Lake or Shamattawa.

If for some reason they did manage to get their act together, there would be an awfully lot of pilots looking for a new career, and a lot of companies facing fines. My guess is that if they wanted to kick up a storm, companies would fight back for some sort of occlusion to the cars to come up with an op’s spec that states its ‘ok’ to fly with some ice as long as the pilot feels safe. Why? Because it costs big money to deice an aircraft. It takes equipment, fluid, training, personal, and other resources. You won’t see wasaya putting a deice truck in north spirit lake, or calm air doing the same in gods narrows. They simply leave it up to the crew’s discretion. This way, they can wipe their hands of any wrong doing if something happens or someone gets caught. From a company stand point, it makes sense (financially). You save money on fluid/equipment and any liability. If the flight crew chooses they can, and are expected to do with what little they have. Pilots (who many in the north are compensated with a mileage incentive) do not want to be climbing wings and rickety latters in 30mph winds at -20C with a leaky piss pack to spray a little type 1 from the impact ice their picked up on the way in. It’ll put them late for their other 12 legs of sked’s they have to complete, and get their hands all sticky. Eeww.

To get it to change, it’s got to start with transport. Companies won’t do anything to change it, because it costs money. Pilots don’t, because it’s dirty, messy (HELLO, white shirt and epilates here!), and takes time they usually don’t have. Ground crews are an option, but most are unreliable for a variety of reasons. Does it make it right? Of course not, but that’s reality.
I’ve flown in the north long enough to know it won’t change. If something bad happens, or someone gets caught, it likely will for a short amount of time, but then will slide back to the status quo within a few weeks. Try convincing a 748 driver that his airplane can’t fly with a 1/4” inch of impact ice when he’s been doing it for 30 years. Northern sked’s are usually designed with short, tight turns and long days. I’ve never seen a 1900 pilot deice his tail, EVER. Even the province of Ontario’s infamous medical savior, they’ll wipe the leading edge a bit, but never touch the tail. Everyone is guilty of it, and until someone stands up and says something, it can’t change.

As for the OP, the right thing to do is alert the flight crew. If they do something about it (likely most will, even if they are hesitant), then problem solved. Alerting them lets them know someone is watching, and that may force them to change their habits. If they don’t do anything about it, follow grey wolfs instructions and alert the proper authorities.
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Maynard
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Maynard »

So where exactly was the ice? How did you see the top of the wing and that it was indeed contaminated with ice? Was it clear ice from FZRA overnight, or snow melted and froze? If you flew with them that many times with ice on the wings, did it change your thoughts to flying with ice on the wings?
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CalmAir FLTOPS
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by CalmAir FLTOPS »

bungee wrote:I have been on Calm Air's ATR a lot this winter and noticed they are departing with ice on the wings about 50% of the time. Its not a lot but enough that they should be de iced. What does one do as a passenger, call Transport or try to get hold of the chief pilot?
Bungee,

I appreciate your post and bringing this issue to all of our attention. I invite you to contact us directly if you have specific concerns that you would like to see addressed.

Please, feel free to contact Calm Air Flight Operations (flightoperations@calmair.com) with the details of the incidents you are referring to. Or alternatively if you feel more comfortable, you can contact me directly (bstock@calmair.com) :

The following information will greatly assist our investigation into these incidents.
1. Date
2. Time
3. Flight Number
4. Departure Airport.

This will allow us to investigate the incidents in question an help to ensure that things like this don't continue to happen.

Sincerely,

Bill Stock
Chief Pilot, Calm Air International
bstock@calmair.com
(204)956-6174
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William Stock | Chief Pilot
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e. wstock@calmair.com | w. www.calmair.com | @CalmAirCP

Airmanship Police
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Airmanship Police »

I would be curious to know what de-ice strategies are in place for de-icing/anti-icing in remote destinations. Equipment, personel, ect.

Not specifically aimed at Calm air but everyone who flybin these parts.
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crazy_aviator
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by crazy_aviator »

Now that was a wise move from Calm Air !! :D
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Onmyboat
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Onmyboat »

Bungee, If you have 30 years experience why would you come on avcanada to ask a question like that? I'm not sure what your agenda is but your comment is SIMPLY NOT TRUE.
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fish4life
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by fish4life »

Personally I think that's a good and top notch move from the company, most of the "sketchy" companies seem to just get threads like these deleted instead of trying to fix a possible situation.
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boxcut
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by boxcut »

crazy_aviator wrote:Now that was a wise move from Calm Air !! :D
Bill Stock is a classy guy, and Calm Air is one of the better 705 operations out there, with good pilots and dispatch staff focused on safety.
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Mark Y.
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Mark Y. »

Whats more dangerous, frost haze or massive areas of old thick peeling paint? I am also disgusted someone would use a public forum for this discussion, especially someone who has been a pilot for 30 years. Aviation industry has enough problems without ignorant people wanting to be controlled more by big brother. All I can say is Baa
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Often as passengers, we just don't get the same view of "representative" surfaces that the crew has. I've sat over the wing on a West Jet flight that went to de-ice in YWG, when I could see NO ice on any surface. With very few exceptions (Eastern European countries, the odd Caravan etc) you can put your feet up and relax.
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Mark Y. wrote:Whats more dangerous, frost haze or massive areas of old thick peeling paint? I am also disgusted someone would use a public forum for this discussion, especially someone who has been a pilot for 30 years. Aviation industry has enough problems without ignorant people wanting to be controlled more by big brother. All I can say is Baa
So, let's dump on the OP for bringing up a safety concern on an AVIATION FORUM? He's drawing our attention to a potential problem in, guess what, AVIATION. I should think we should read his concerns, and not dump on him for brining them up. News Flash for you Mark Y........contaminated wings HAVE caused accidents! Cut him some slack. I imagine even YOU could LEARN something?
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Maynard
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Maynard »

He still hasn't answered my question. How did he see the top of the wing, tail, how did he know it was full of ice? Was it thick clear ice? Was it leading edge impact? Makes a big difference. Maybe he should clarify rather than blatantly telling the world that they always rake off with ice on the wings.
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pdw
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by pdw »

Passengers have to speak up (and be encouraged to do so) if there's something that bothers them about any safety issue they see; ... bring it to the attention of management so they can deal with the concern right away.

About changing companies ...
bungee wrote:Pretty hard to do that when they are the only show in the north doing scheduled flights
Isn't every pilot by themselves a seperate entrepeneur already ? Each flight didn't necessarily have the same pilot, and each one facing a different weather concern (far different temperatures and precip likely) at every new departure.

Its a good thing when a passenger (bungee) puts their own safety observation under scrutiny and takes the time to make it known, it's still better safe (a little bit of fringe ice) than someday sorry (critical surfaces covered). That's actually SMS at its finest hour, seeing responses in action.
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RatherBeFlying
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by RatherBeFlying »

Back in November, I changed planes at YOW in the dark, noticed condensation on the wings and asked if it was frost or dew. The AC pilot observed that it was +3 and that [according to his understanding of physics] it had to be dew. I declined to go into a detailed discussion of the circumstances (cold soaked surfaces below 0C -- frost over fuel tanks I've seen at 20C) conducive to frost formation; but did say I'd want to run my finger over it to make sure.

He did send a rampie to check and he was right that time.
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bungee
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by bungee »

It's leading edge ice, when one deplanes you can also get a good look at it. It's not noticed by the pilots sitting up front in the cozy cockpit on a dark night. Some of the pilots do a walk around, most don't. Sure the plane will fly with leading edge ice, but it's the law....de- ice. Sure it will make you run a little late. As agreed this is a northeren problem we see on medi vac and charters all the time.
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fish4life
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by fish4life »

Not saying it's legal but let's say you are the pilot and it's -15 or colder and snowing the type of snow that doesn't stick to anything and on approach you picked up a super thin layer of impact ice. Would you just leave the ice on and take off or cover the airplane in fluid now attracting all that previously harmless snow to stick to the top of the wings?
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fish4life
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by fish4life »

Also bungee I hope you take advantage of the opportunity to email the chief pilot hopefully it will change things if in fact there was ice.
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

bungee wrote:It's leading edge ice, when one deplanes you can also get a good look at it. It's not noticed by the pilots sitting up front in the cozy cockpit on a dark night. Some of the pilots do a walk around, most don't. Sure the plane will fly with leading edge ice, but it's the law....de- ice. Sure it will make you run a little late. As agreed this is a northeren problem we see on medi vac and charters all the time.
Well, sometimes, the law is an ass. The type of ice you pick up on approach in the winter (I shall call this "political" ice) provided that it's a thin layer, has no, or such a minuscule effect on flight as to be safely left where it is. If you have been flying for (30?) years, you'd know this.
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arctic_slim
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by arctic_slim »

Lots of ood points on this thread, both with and against "a little bit of ice". The CARS state celarly that no take-off can be attempted with ice, frost or snow on the critical surfaces, we all know that. So any ice, whether it's impact ice from the approach or a little bit or frost or non-sticky snow etc should techinically be removed, we all know that.

But there are other factors. As someone else said, a little bit of snow that will blow off as soon as you start moving is better than spraying the plane and having snow start sticking to it as you do a fast taxi in order to keep your holdover time.
Northern flying would be crippled if everyone was to de-ice due to a thin layer of impact ice picked up on approach since most of those strips barely have a CARS operator, let alone de-ice equipment.
I have seen it all up north. I"ve seen management start yelling at captains becauase he (the captain) wanted to de-ice when the manager who was in his office didn't see a need for it. "It will fly just fine, you don't need to de-ice". In that case the captain stood his ground and took a full de-ice. The wings and tail were completely covered in frost. I have also seen guys just polish the ice/frost, which I know the plane will fly just fine but still illegal according to the CARS and I've seen planes take off with 1/2 inch of ice on the upper leading edge of the wings and tail (not exaggerating). I was a rampie at the time and offered to go get the de-ice cart and de-ice but the captain said it's ok, it will fly. And it did. It took off fully loaded and climbed out with no problem at all.

That might be acceptable up north where de-icing is not as easy to do and pilots exercise their discression and it's worked so far. Down south at the major airports it's the other way around. Everyone seems to de-ice, and honestly it took me a little bit of time to get used to it. Up north it was all about polishing or sweeping and going. It was tempting to just say "oh she will fly, don't bother" but i'm glad to be able to de-ice at any time and not feel like some manager will yell at me for wanting a de-ice.

Every time I look at the plane and I have any doubt about whether the critical surfaces are contaminated, I get a de-ice. It's a big change from the "norm" up north.

I'm not bashing anyone here, i'm just saying that up north it's the "norm" and pilots seem to know what the plane can and cannot take and they do what they need to get flying. Down south it's more about de-icing to stay legal and not have anyone say something about the ice/frost/snow on the wings. I've heard the term "let's get a PR spray" so many times.
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Another classic example of, if there's a RULE, common sense goes down the toilet.
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by ettw »

I'm not getting into the right or wrong thing to do in this discussion but I will provide an observation: clean wing on a HS748, dip it into the top of some CU and come back up. With my own eyes I've seen +5 KIAS. Those boots are not the smoothest things to put on a wing plus the patches.

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Airmanship Police
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Airmanship Police »

I guess some pilots here think it's okay to break the law and fly with impact ice instead of de-icing, anti-icing and cancelling if you can't make your holdover time.

Do you guys let your PAYING pax know that you are about to break the law before you depart so they can decide if they want to deplane or not? Maybe you don't care because "she'll fly just fine".

I keep saying that the north attracts a certain type of pilots who will make a career up there.

I may be a pussy, an aweful pilot and all that, but i will always take a PR spray and keep my pax in the loop.
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