Calm Air and De icing

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bezerker
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by bezerker »

//Personal attack removed by Sulako. Take a week off to read the forum rules.
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timel
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by timel »

Airmanship Police wrote:I guess some pilots here think it's okay to break the law and fly with impact ice instead of de-icing, anti-icing and cancelling if you can't make your holdover time.

Do you guys let your PAYING pax know that you are about to break the law before you depart so they can decide if they want to deplane or not? Maybe you don't care because "she'll fly just fine".

I keep saying that the north attracts a certain type of pilots who will make a career up there.

I may be a pussy, an aweful pilot and all that, but i will always take a PR spray and keep my pax in the loop.
When you have a de-icing truck available it is better than a gallon contenant. 90% place I fly there are no de-icing services. We carry couple littre type I in the airplane with a heater plug.

Try to de-ice a T-tails of some aircrafts etc... with a ladder, your boots full of snow trying not to brake your neck. Almost impossible from what I heard.
Artic_slim makes a good point, heat up the wings with type I, most remote north places don't have type IV, so when snow will fall on your hot wings it will become ice instead of non sticky snow just passing by. A broom does a good job too most the times on certain airplane like be10.

It's not about being pussy, nobody likes it. It just works like this. Captains use good judgement. North weather because of the cold, makes de-icing decisions less crazy than south places in winter.
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FurHat
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by FurHat »

Airmanship Police wrote:I guess some pilots here think it's okay to break the law and fly with impact ice instead of de-icing, anti-icing and cancelling if you can't make your holdover time.
Looks like you need to brush up on your regs.

From the CARS;
6.3 Take-off after Holdover Times have been Exceeded

When holdover timetables are used as decision-making criteria, take-off after holdover times have been exceeded can occur only if a pre-take-off contamination inspection is conducted or the aircraft is de-iced/anti-iced again. The operator's Program must specify the procedures to be followed when holdover time is exceeded, and these procedures must appear in the appropriate manuals.
"Making your holdover time" means nothing. So long as a PCI is performed and you are free of contam, good to go. My company allows us to to do a PCI from the flight deck.
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by FurHat »

arctic_slim wrote:. So any ice, whether it's impact ice from the approach or a little bit or frost or non-sticky snow etc should techinically be removed, we all know that.
Um nope. Ice, snow etc is only considered a contaminant when it is adhering. So "non-sticky snow" that isn't adhering does not need to be removed.
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crazy_aviator
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by crazy_aviator »

Isn't every pilot by themselves a seperate entrepeneur already ? Each flight didn't necessarily have the same pilot, and each one facing a different weather concern (far different temperatures and precip likely) at every new departure.

Its a good thing when a passenger (bungee) puts their own safety observation under scrutiny and takes the time to make it known, it's still better safe (a little bit of fringe ice) than someday sorry (critical surfaces covered). That's actually SMS at its finest hour, seeing responses in action.
Those with less experience or bad attitude will not agree with this wise retort, regardless of whom it is from ! KUDOS to PDW !
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FICU
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by FICU »

fish4life wrote:Not saying it's legal but let's say you are the pilot and it's -15 or colder and snowing the type of snow that doesn't stick to anything and on approach you picked up a super thin layer of impact ice. Would you just leave the ice on and take off or cover the airplane in fluid now attracting all that previously harmless snow to stick to the top of the wings?
How about removing the impact ice if that's the only ice on the plane. I've scraped the ice off of many a de-ice boot up north.
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Minimums »

It doesn't matter if it makes the airplane faster. It doesn't matter if it doesn't affect the way it fly's. It doesn't matter if it puts undo stress of the crews to have an de ice. It doesn't matter if the rule is stupid. Law is the law. If you want to change it, MAN UP, call TC. Write letters, make phone calls. Talk to your politician, start a petition. Don't be calling out others on a public forum as a source to output on your thoughts on the matter. Deal with it like a professional.

On a personal note, I hope all the old drivers get caught with their pants down before they retire and helped into an early retirement with a nice fine to boot. This stuff doesn't fly in the south, and it shouldn't fly in the north. Time for TC to get off its butt, go secretly fly aboard some of these airlines and see for themselves what goes on. I know an airline that would be out a lot of senior drivers if they did so.
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timel
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by timel »

Minimums wrote:It doesn't matter if it makes the airplane faster. It doesn't matter if it doesn't affect the way it fly's. It doesn't matter if it puts undo stress of the crews to have an de ice. It doesn't matter if the rule is stupid. Law is the law. If you want to change it, MAN UP, call TC. Write letters, make phone calls. Talk to your politician, start a petition. Don't be calling out others on a public forum as a source to output on your thoughts on the matter. Deal with it like a professional.

On a personal note, I hope all the old drivers get caught with their pants down before they retire and helped into an early retirement with a nice fine to boot. This stuff doesn't fly in the south, and it shouldn't fly in the north. Time for TC to get off its butt, go secretly fly aboard some of these airlines and see for themselves what goes on. I know an airline that would be out a lot of senior drivers if they did so.
Whatever. When you have your ass seated with WS, jazz, AC it's easy to shout out the law is the law.
I worked in a de ice center where the only aircraft coming were aircanada airplanes (air canada festival) for almost inexistant frost, where even american crj wouldn't bother to come or other countries airlines.

If I go de-ice for type 1 and 4 with trucks, the flight will probably delayed cancelled because it won't be making money or it will be a loss of money.


Get yourself up north in a turboprop aircraft where de icing services do not exist. I'll watch you go say the law is the law.

Impact ice making a thin broken non existant layer on leading edge? Rarely removed.

It's a good reflexion thou.. But sometime no hangar, no de icing truck...
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Airmanship Police
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Airmanship Police »

Bezerker: Thank you for your constructive comment. I guess you are a true seasoned northern flyer!!

I suppose the get er done me tality is still aive and well in the north. if you have to fly to a destination where u have no equipment to de-ice with. If there is forcasted icing you don't HAVE to go. If you know you will put yourself in a situation where u will have to break the law to get out.

If the company you work for operate a sched to some remote camp, They should make equipmd t available for you to use and train pots to use it if there is no ground support.

But then again, I am just a mediocre pilot and a f'ing idiot.
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bezerker
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by bezerker »

Mediocre might be pushing it.

Thanks for the compliment.

p.s. I enjoy reading the grade 3 English.
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Minimums »

timel wrote: Whatever. When you have your ass seated with WS, jazz, AC it's easy to shout out the law is the law.
I worked in a de ice center where the only aircraft coming were aircanada airplanes (air canada festival) for almost inexistant frost, where even american crj wouldn't bother to come or other countries airlines.

If I go de-ice for type 1 and 4 with trucks, the flight will probably delayed cancelled because it won't be making money or it will be a loss of money.


Get yourself up north in a turboprop aircraft where de icing services do not exist. I'll watch you go say the law is the law.

Impact ice making a thin broken non existant layer on leading edge? Rarely removed.

It's a good reflexion thou.. But sometime no hangar, no de icing truck...
I don't need an airline seat to shout out the law. I have been, currently, and will continue to do so. I worked in the north long enough to know what goes on, what works, and what doesn't. Standing your ground is a good way to start. Won't make you a company favorite, but it'll earn you respect, from both yourself and your peers.

If you're to afraid to go for type 1 or type 4 because your flight will be delayed or cancelled, than you're part of the problem. If your companies questions you, state the f*in law. Can't argue with that, and if they do, phone transport and let me know what's going on, that'll change the tune real quick. If you loose your job because of it, find yourself a lawyer, a union rep and a reporter. I know guys who have done it, and I'm proud to call them my friends. They went through some tough times in the process, but all are working again for better, more reputable companies.

Its called growing a pair.

There are answers to the problem. Not all involve a $100,000 piece of equipment.
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by CpnCrunch »

Scary stuff. Looks like Bill has a difficult job ahead of him, unless all the posters above are trolls.
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esp803

Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by esp803 »

Airmanship Police wrote:I keep saying that the north attracts a certain type of pilots who will make a career up there.
Airmanship Police, This is the dumbest thing I have ever read on this site, followed closely by several other of your comments. Have you ever worked in the north? I do mean the real north here, not NWO, not northern Manitoba. The north attracts certain types eh? I was born in the north, does that automatically make me a dangerous pilot?

In my experience the north does attract a certain type of person, they are generally very skilled at what they do. Speaking from personal experience, I've operated Caravans in under 1500' strips, 206's in under 1000', flown floats at alarmingly high density altitudes on one way lakes, have had to deice my airplane after landings in some of those "bush camps" with little more then a stick and time. I know several of the people that you frequently try to belittle on this site, and I would trust every single one of them with my life. The north offers some of the most challenging, fun, exciting, varying flying there is out there.
Airmanship Police wrote:I suppose the get er done me tality is still aive and well in the north


No more then it is in the south, in fact I'd say it happens less in the north. It's been my experience that crews in the north are generally more experienced and do tell the managers to F*#& off when it's needed. I've seen the scariest dispatches well south of 60, by pilots who are itching to break in.
Airmanship Police wrote:company you work for operate a sched to some remote camp,
Sched? Are you kidding me? Most of the places I fly are purely on a charter basis. There is no equipment in offstrip flying. Some places I fly ONCE a season... does that warrant having a deice truck flown in via Kamov?
Airmanship Police wrote:If there is forcasted icing you don't HAVE to go. If you know you will put yourself in a situation where u will have to break the law to get out
I've flown many northern planes that are certified for flight into known icing... that means we can do those trips when the weather isn't 40sm and no ceiling. If I need to deice, I do, sometimes manually with a pogo stick.

Don't judge us "northern pilots" until you have come and flown with us, SOME of you southern wankers really piss me off with your ignorance.

E
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by arctic_slim »

Wow this is becoming a north vs south battle haha.
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fish4life
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by fish4life »

Whoever said Bill has quite a battle, well I have done medevacs and seen / been on calm air airplanes and they seem to deice or not land if they picked up ice from what I've experienced so I think bungee may have had a rogue pilot if there was actually ice being picked up. So I think this isn't a Calm Air issue. As for everyone else not every destination has a central de-ice facility I honestly would like to see manufacturers certify take off charts with minimal leading edge ice, most pilots know a "little" leading edge ice won't have any effect as there old beat up boots which are less smooth than a layer of thin clear ice that actually makes the wing more streamlined. I'm not talking about guys who talk / brag about taking off with 1/2 inch + of leading edge ice or ice on top of the wing which IMHO is retarded I'm just talking about the super thing layers of leading edge ice. Let the debate begin.
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Jean-Pierre
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Jean-Pierre »

fish4life wrote:they seem to deice or not land if they picked up ice from what I've experienced
Oh please. So they don't land for 8 month of the year? Do they carry a 30 foot ladder on board to deice horizontal stab when they land up north? Has anyone seen calm air pilots scrambling up these with a piss pack before they take off from the reserve? Image Because if not then they are taking off with ice on a regular basis. A highwing 705 aircraft with a t-tail on top of that and transport canada clean wing concept are not compatible if you are landing in the middle of nowhere. Anyone that believe otherwise is naive or they bury their head in the sand like transport does.
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boxcut
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by boxcut »

bungee wrote:It's leading edge ice, when one deplanes you can also get a good look at it. It's not noticed by the pilots sitting up front in the cozy cockpit on a dark night.
Calm Air flies ATRs, you deplane from the rear, how are you getting a good look at the leading edge of the wing? You shouldn't be anywhere near the front of the wing/prop for that matter. And the pilots can see the leading edge of the wing from the cockpit, they can also see the prop hub, and they are required to check the roll spoilers too, which are painted orange to aid in identifying contamination. While flying, the ATR has a 'mock wing' mounted just outside the cockpit that demonstrates current ice buildup as well. To say that pilots don't notice leading edge ice is to be uninformed about the subject.
Some of the pilots do a walk around, most don't.
I love generalizations! It's an unsupported statement that is biased towards your argument! It's also a great way to slander Northern Pilots who are on the whole very cautions and acutely aware of icing dangers.
Sure the plane will fly with leading edge ice, but it's the law....de- ice. Sure it will make you run a little late. As agreed this is a northeren problem we see on medi vac and charters all the time.
If a plane requires a de-ice, it gets one. If the plane picks up icing going into a station, and there is no adequate de-ice (or as is more often the case, anti-ice) available, it usually goes missed. Holdover times being what they are, you see a lot of misses in precipitation in the winter months.

If you as a passenger are concerned, notify the flight attendant who will notify the captain. If you are really concerned, Calm Air's chief pilot already posted several ways of getting in contact with him. Maybe you should take pictures or something, so that you have proof as well.
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timel
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by timel »

I don't need an airline seat to shout out the law. I have been, currently, and will continue to do so. I worked in the north long enough to know what goes on, what works, and what doesn't. Standing your ground is a good way to start. Won't make you a company favorite, but it'll earn you respect, from both yourself and your peers.
My company has excellent safety values. And no pilots will go if they don't feel it's right or safe.

If you're to afraid to go for type 1 or type 4 because your flight will be delayed or cancelled, than you're part of the problem. If your companies questions you, state the f*in law. Can't argue with that, and if they do, phone transport and let me know what's going on, that'll change the tune real quick. If you loose your job because of it, find yourself a lawyer, a union rep and a reporter. I know guys who have done it, and I'm proud to call them my friends. They went through some tough times in the process, but all are working again for better, more reputable companies.
I will try everything to avoid de-icing truck including a hangar and spray of type 4 before living because contrary to airline budgets, a 703-704 commuter can hardly afford, and if we have to go it will be at the client cost on the charter.
Its called growing a pair.
I think human brain has been giving the ability to think and judge, nobody up there wants to die.
When people say the law is the law it makes me laugh. Means that out of the law you can't produce any judgement of what you think is right or wrong.

I'll let you know an other great transport law analysis.
One of our training captain in an audit did argue with transport inspectors about duty hours in 703-704, how on a well optimized scheduling you could burn a pilot in a way he would be tired anough not to do his job good. Of course you can refuse to go or call sick...

But you know what transport inspectors said :"well it's the law ... So it's like that"
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Minimums wrote:It doesn't matter if it makes the airplane faster. It doesn't matter if it doesn't affect the way it fly's. It doesn't matter if it puts undo stress of the crews to have an de ice. It doesn't matter if the rule is stupid. Law is the law. If you want to change it, MAN UP, call TC. Write letters, make phone calls. Talk to your politician, start a petition. Don't be calling out others on a public forum as a source to output on your thoughts on the matter. Deal with it like a professional.

On a personal note, I hope all the old drivers get caught with their pants down before they retire and helped into an early retirement with a nice fine to boot. This stuff doesn't fly in the south, and it shouldn't fly in the north. Time for TC to get off its butt, go secretly fly aboard some of these airlines and see for themselves what goes on. I know an airline that would be out a lot of senior drivers if they did so.
Spoken like the self righteous type who never rolls through a stop sign, or drives 5kph over the limit.
It's 03:00, you're in Upper Armpit MB. You've picked up leading edge ice on your mighty twin turbo prop. Building is locked. You going to shut it down? Or, are you going to roll through that pesky stop sign? Do you have ANY common sense? Ball's in your court. What ya gonna do? Bad boy, bad boy?
Illya
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by CpnCrunch »

Illya Kuryakin wrote: Spoken like the self righteous type who never rolls through a stop sign, or drives 5kph over the limit.
It's 03:00, you're in Upper Armpit MB. You've picked up leading edge ice on your mighty twin turbo prop. Building is locked. You going to shut it down? Or, are you going to roll through that pesky stop sign? Do you have ANY common sense? Ball's in your court. What ya gonna do? Bad boy, bad boy?
Illya
I guess it depends what other rules you break. Not carrying the very latest CFS at night is one thing, but do you also take off above max gross? Or keep flying into below VFR weather? Or bust minimums by 100 feet (or 1000 feet, as in a recent accident). It seems that all of these things pop up regularly in the accident reports. It's usually MB or BC rather than up north that we see the accidents as far as I can tell. Perhaps up north they just know how to break the rules and get away with it (i.e. not make a hole in the ground) better.
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by FurHat »

CpnCrunch wrote:Not carrying the very latest CFS at night is one thing, but do you also take off above max gross?
I would argue that almost everyone who has taken off at gross on paper has taken off overweight. "Standard" weights are hardly standard, especially when summer supposedly starts in March. Many airlines use standard weights for crew which are completely unrealistic (350. Lbs at one turbo prop operator I'm aware of...that supposedly also includes their flight bags).

I guess we need some of these de-ice experts to tell us which laws need to be followed to the letter and which ones we can let slide a bit.
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

The subject is de-ice. Do you all have ADD?
Illya
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timel
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by timel »

I mean from the points of views getting here if you guys have a strip of extra grease on your wing do you refuse to take off due to wing contamination? Or if you have a left over of type 4 on airlerons from your previous do you guys go de-icing in florida?
Cause technicaly if not you are breaking law, I mean do you walk with a broom in your arses?
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by CpnCrunch »

Illya Kuryakin wrote:The subject is de-ice. Do you all have ADD?
Illya
Nope. My point is that if you're deliberately breaking the law by taking off with ice on the wings, do you also break the law in other ways? And if so how much is acceptable? It was you who said it was okay to break the law a bit. No need for personal attacks.
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Re: Calm Air and De icing

Post by Minimums »

Illya Kuryakin wrote: Spoken like the self righteous type who never rolls through a stop sign, or drives 5kph over the limit.
It's 03:00, you're in Upper Armpit MB. You've picked up leading edge ice on your mighty twin turbo prop. Building is locked. You going to shut it down? Or, are you going to roll through that pesky stop sign? Do you have ANY common sense? Ball's in your court. What ya gonna do? Bad boy, bad boy?
Illya
Have I done things wrong? Sure. Am I perfect? No. Do I know where to draw the line, you bet. As you get older, you learn a thing or two. Learning not to get into a situation is priority number one. If I have to go to Armpit MB at 03:00, I want to know before I even leave the ground if I have the ability to remove said leading edge ice if it looks like there is a chance I'll pick it up on the way in. Do I have the ability to deice? If I do, great, pack up and lets jet. If not, what options do I have? Call out for deice? Not likely in Armpit MB. Hanger? Again, not likely. Wait for weather to improve? Possible alternative. Cancel flight if WX doesn't improve enough to prevent ice on arrival? Also possible alternative. Building is locked? Who'd a thought that would be true in Armpit MB at 03:00? Maybe you should have considered that before so eagerly jumping aboard and blasting off into a situation you can no longer control. Any common sense? Don't think I'm the one lacking it.
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