Calm Air and De icing

[bungee]

I have been on Calm Air's ATR a lot this winter and noticed they are departing with ice on the wings about 50% of the time. Its not a lot but enough that they should be de iced. What does one do as a passenger, call Transport or try to get hold of the chief pilot?

[FICU]

Tell the flight attendant to notify the Captain of your concerns before you depart.

[PositiveRate27]

Photo evidence will take you much, much further if indeed you feel this is a serious issue.

[Redneck_pilot86]

Are you a pilot Bungee? Have you got any icing training? Sometimes what appears to be ice on the wings actually is just water droplets. I find it really hard to believe a large carrier has successfully taken off with ice on their wings 50% of the time all winter and not had anyone comment before this.

[bungee]

Yup,I'm a pilot....been doing it over thirty years. I do know it was brought to their attention earlier in the season. It got better for awhile and now has slipped again. And it is ice,not water.

[Jean-Pierre]

705 turboprops departing with iced/frosted up wings is northern Canada's dirty little secret. ATR, Hawker, DC-3, C-46, etc. These planes often spend the night at airports where no hangar is available, they don't have wing covers, and they don't have deicing trucks. Officially they say that they will sweep. Good luck with that.

[ODA]

Just post it on a public forum. That's the professional way to deal with it.

[Grey_Wolf]

Depends to which extent that you want to get involved.

First instinct is to notify the crew, as you've been doing. Get photo evidence as mentioned before.

Contact the CP if you can. Not sure how current the info is ...
http://www.pilotcareercenter.com/Air-Ca ... ational+LP

If things don't get resolved, i.e., the crew adhering to CAR 602.11, next step is a call to CACO.
Civil Aviation Contingency Operations (CACO) at 1-877-992-6853

I'd also follow up with a CAIRS report.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/o ... nu-209.htm

Lastly, CAR 602.11
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... l#s-602.11

[fish4life]

If you remember the date / which flights you were on and it happened it would be worth an email / phone call to the CP.

[timel]

And than you get the whole aircanada fleet coming for de-ice cause they have 2"x1" light frost on a 330 wing and get a wing/stab type 1.

I would just advise my concerne to company CP.

I saw once a KLM taking off with 5" of snow on the wings.
I would be more stressed by non symetric wings on t-o. One clean one not clean.

Idealy better clean it up for sure.
But ... Yep ...

[timel]

Just post it on a public forum. That's the professional way to deal with it.

[J31]

I saw once a KLM taking off with 5" of snow on the wings.
I would be more stressed by non symetric wings on t-o. One clean one not clean.

Idealy better clean it up for sure.
But ... Yep ...

5 inches....I call BS! While I'm sure you witnessed some contamination, maybe a lot but come on now....5 inches!

[arctic_slim]

Are you a pilot Bungee? Have you got any icing training? Sometimes what appears to be ice on the wings actually is just water droplets. I find it really hard to believe a large carrier has successfully taken off with ice on their wings 50% of the time all winter and not had anyone comment before this.

You should see some of the carriers up north. Dash, ATR, WW2 planes, King airs, Navajos you name it. I found it hard to believe at first too, but it seems to be the norm. As someone else stated, it's a dirty little secret up there. I'm amazed at how many times I heard "Bah, she'll fly"....and she did.

I agree with telling the flight attendant to notify the pilot and see what they say/do. After that it's up to you I suppose to take it further with the CP or TC. That's my 2 cents in there.

[pdw]

I saw once a KLM taking off with 5" of snow on the wings.
I would be more stressed by non symetric wings on t-o. One clean one not clean.

Idealy better clean it up for sure.
But ... Yep ...

5 inches....I call BS! While I'm sure you witnessed some contamination, maybe a lot but come on now....5 inches!

If the air is calm the snow won't blow off easily, ... but also maybe only 5 inch soft ? That type of snow blows off quickly / readily and well before rotation; in a remote area without services, the pilots would have to be watching this very closely.

Once recently I'd offered de-icing / hangar storage to a crew of tired pilots late at night before a forecast overnight storm. The next day I got out there early with ladders / de-icing equipment (no hangar found for them) and while waiting they arrived but waved me off and immediately departed, except then aborted once to perfect the 'blow off' operation before rotating on the next try. Talk about seeing this problem first hand ...

The concern was more for what was just underneath their 2-3" powdery snow, a coarser/actual ice layer not so readily blown off before reaching rotation speed. Got to thinking afterwards, the substrate's thin contamination would have been least noticeable on this plane near empty weight on this particular morning ... yet what about another set of circumstances ?

It's the pilots responsibility (sure) and the operators responsibility (of course). The municipality / local gov't involved in the airport IMO should not be 'off the hook' too easily either if snow-sweeping/de-icing to uphold the 'clean concept' presents an unbearable cost constraint (ie a bad winter) or if red tape lies in the way of funding/improving these costly/environmentally-friendly systems. The local MP/MPP constituency offices might be the right place to go since they often also use these local air services; at least it can bring your very legitimate concern to proper attention. Remember that bungee saw it, we didn't.

[timel]

I saw once a KLM taking off with 5" of snow on the wings.
I would be more stressed by non symetric wings on t-o. One clean one not clean.

Idealy better clean it up for sure.
But ... Yep ...

5 inches....I call BS! While I'm sure you witnessed some contamination, maybe a lot but come on now....5 inches!

2-3" would be more appropriate I admit. But on the acceleration there was a huge cloud and it was the non sticky one.

Yes up north it's not like in the south.
Also temps are much colder in the north so it's more rare to have sticky contaminations. ice in winter on the wings. Personaly from decembre to march I haven't bad any ice on my wings, temperatures wouldn't go over -10 the whole time. So calm air who fly more north than I do. I hardly imagine ice on their wings... Maybe over fuel tanks? Since fuel is delivered at +15?

How do you see contamination on an atr wing from the passenger seat by the way?

Flying a jet or a crj it is pretty critical to clean the laminar wings.

[GyvAir]

Take some visually striking video and send it to the 6:00 news. Mention something about Dryden?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtKvU6uff4g[/youtube]

[timel]

The video comes from the crashed aircraft?
That is definitly sticky contamination.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Yup,I'm a pilot....been doing it over thirty years. I do know it was brought to their attention earlier in the season. It got better for awhile and now has slipped again. And it is ice,not water.

Bottom line. If you're uncomfortable, get off the airplane. Seriously.
Illya

[GyvAir]

I don't think the aircraft taking off early in the video is the accident aircraft shown later.

[GyvAir]

More Russian deicing decision outcomes: