Cat & Doc

[NWONT]

It's not about thin skin, it's about respect for those that went before you and blazed the trail. It's one thing to sling shit at others on your own level but if you can't respect your elders (I'm sure your Mother taught you that) then respect you betters. Most will only accomplish one thing or career in their lives. But Cat has done so much in so many different areas of aviation and is quite qualified to comment in them.

[Big Pistons Forever]

In less than 2 years I will celebrate my 40 th year as a pilot. I have every aeroplane license and rating you can get and 6 type ratings on transport category and/or high performance aircraft.

But

1) Just because I am an older guy I don't think I should automatically get respect for anything I say. I am happy to be judged by what I write and hopefully will influence others by the force and logic of my arguments not just because of the number of years I have been flying or the the numbers of hours I have.

2) Just because I am older guy doesn't mean I still can't learn from others, regardless of age or experience

3) I don't post for the guys that answer, I post for the 90 % of those who look but don't post. Throughout my time flying I was, and continue to be helped, by many others who took the time to explain/teach/challenge me. I hope my posts help pay that debt forward.

[frozen solid]

People here are excited to see your tailwheel jets that you speak of.

I read that the ME262 was originally built with a tailwheel. The way the exhaust hit the tail after being deflected by the pavement made it impossible to get the tail up even at high speed, and the test pilot would tap the brakes during the takeoff roll to raise the tail. I guess the technique made them a bit nervous so they put a nose wheel on it. That's why the 262 has such a spindly nosewheel leg and why it was notorious for breaking: it was designed as an afterthought.

True story!

Well, it could be true. I'm certainly not making it up.

[Colonel Sanders]

I know there is a project to build several me262 replicas, but to the best of my knowledge they are all the later nosewheel variants.

This is why I am so impressed with mdh - he has the original tailwheel versions of the me262 which I really want to see in person!

[Illya Kuryakin]

Was it an actual tail wheel, or a skid? Thought it was a skid.
Illya

[Shiny Side Up]

Maybe he has a rare Supermarine Attacker...

[PilotDAR]

I'm not quite there for licenses and type ratings, but otherwise...

In less than 2 years I will celebrate my 40 th year as a pilot. I have every aeroplane license and rating you can get and 6 type ratings on transport category and/or high performance aircraft.

But

1) Just because I am an older guy I don't think I should automatically get respect for anything I say. I am happy to be judged by what I write and hopefully will influence others by the force and logic of my arguments not just because of the number of years I have been flying or the the numbers of hours I have.

2) Just because I am older guy doesn't mean I still can't learn from others, regardless of age or experience

3) I don't post for the guys that answer, I post for the 90 % of those who look but don't post. Throughout my time flying I was, and continue to be helped, by many others who took the time to explain/teach/challenge me. I hope my posts help pay that debt forward.

+1

[NWONT]

Whether or not that you feel you deserve respect for your achievements is totally up to you. I have no idea what they are. I know airlines have hired low time pilots for the right seat and they have spent their entire careers at some flight level or another. I know a few guys that were never in command of an aircraft until they moved to the left seat of an airliner. Are you one of those? I don't know. Did you work your way up through the bush? Have you flown a DC-3 or the like on skis? Have you been a water-bomber pilot? Have you flown an unpressurized, radial engine aircraft around the world? It's my personal choice to respect the men that did these things as I also spent many years as a pilot and engineer on this type of aircraft working in the north and I well know the challenges involved here. I respect the engineers that busted their knuckles repairing aircraft in severe conditions. I learned so much from these men but it's all worthless knowledge now as aviation has moved to a new era and these days are pretty much gone forever. Cat used to post a few pictures on here and one that really impressed my was of him flying a Canso across the Sahara Desert. What a great shot with the red sand below. I respect his achievements and those like him that have experienced so many different areas of aviation and not just the airline life. I agree with you, you don't deserve respect just for putting in 40 years on the job. It's what you have seen, done and experienced over those years that matter. It's your call if you deserve respect or not but you sure as hell don't deserve insults from some child just starting out in this business.

[YYZSaabGuy]

I'm not quite there for licenses and type ratings, but otherwise...

In less than 2 years I will celebrate my 40 th year as a pilot. I have every aeroplane license and rating you can get and 6 type ratings on transport category and/or high performance aircraft.

But

1) Just because I am an older guy I don't think I should automatically get respect for anything I say. I am happy to be judged by what I write and hopefully will influence others by the force and logic of my arguments not just because of the number of years I have been flying or the the numbers of hours I have.

2) Just because I am older guy doesn't mean I still can't learn from others, regardless of age or experience

3) I don't post for the guys that answer, I post for the 90 % of those who look but don't post. Throughout my time flying I was, and continue to be helped, by many others who took the time to explain/teach/challenge me. I hope my posts help pay that debt forward.

+1

A BIG +1 for me too. I'm nowhere near either PilotDAR or BPF from a licensing and rating standpoint - not even close. Like them, however, I believe respect is earned, not automatically accrued as a result of putting in time. The posters from whom I learn are the ones, like PilotDAR and BPF, and ifly, and complexintentions, and EricJanson, and treykule, and SSU, and Rockie, pelmet, RealityChex, photofly, and AuxBatOn (although we'll likely never agree on the F-35), who usually manage to subsume their personalities and stick to the real deal: presenting their experience, arguing logically, paying it forward without belittling or condescending to the rest of us.

A nice contrast to the drama queen schtick frequently relied on by several of the more frequent posters mentioned in this thread.

[PilotDAR]

I can recall, particularly in my early flying days, being the third of forth available choice for a task sometimes. I might be the lesser experienced or qualified person available. But I would see other People say: "I'm not doing that", or "why am I bothering with this?", or simply "meh". 'Their choice, of course, but the job still needed doing, and now they were gone, I was first in line. I cleaned a lot of filthy aircraft bellies, dealt with some grumpy passengers, and lifted a lot of heavy stuff. Soon, I started getting asked first, and the jobs got way better too...

I still clean aircraft bellies (but now only the ones I own), and lift heavy stuff, but it's 'cause I want it moved. I've learned compassion for the "meh" people of the world, sometimes they get the different path, I hope it's what they wanted.....

I'll sit for hours, still a bit wide eyed, and listen to Cat's stories over his kitchen table....

[All Sides]

I-agree with you, you don't deserve respect just for putting in 40 years on the job. It's what you have seen, done and experienced over those years that matter. It's your call if you deserve respect or not but you sure as hell don't deserve insults from some child just starting out in this business.

I agree that slinging insults are unacceptable, regardless how much time you have in the industry. That goes for everyone posting on here whether you have 1 year or 60 years in the industry. I have pretty much been in the industry for the required 40 years, I don't treat a low timer any different than a high timer. A lot of high timers have long ago quit posting on here not because of just the new generation, but because of the behaviour of some of the past generations. Having a full logbook doesn't automatically earn other pilots respect, acting like a professional with an impressive logbook and flying record does.

[Cat Driver]

NWONT......


About half my working experience in aviation was as an airplane mechanic and the wroking conditions were brutal at times......

......we did engine changes outside in the Arctic with temperatures below minus fifty degrees C.

......but the most difficult was in Jeddah outside on the ramp with the daily temps above plus fifty C.

.....had to cover the wings with carpets were we were working or we wouldhave got third degree burns through our coveralls and at least once a day I had to lance the water blisters on my feet.

We really earned our pay but we never quit because it was to difficult.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I know Cat. I used to have to walk up hill, in bare feet, in the middle of winter, five miles, to and from work as well. Nobody is impressed anymore.
Illya

[frozen solid]

Was it an actual tail wheel, or a skid? Thought it was a skid.
Illya

I know there is a project to build several me262 replicas, but to the best of my knowledge they are all the later nosewheel variants.

I don't know if it was a skid or a wheel, now that you mention it. I think it was just the first or first couple of prototypes. All the operational ones were nose wheels.

The company that is making replicas (or "made".. I think they actually finished that project) were originally hired to cosmetically restore the "gate guardian" ME 262 for a USAF base in Texas... they offered to do it for free if they could use the aircraft as a pattern for the new ones. The engines were quite interesting too, they made an external shell to resemble an old Junkers Jumo 004, and buried a modern little engine in it that has a similar thrust rating. So when you open the cowl it looks like the real thing, including the mounts.

I thought it was a really cool project, I really hope to see one someday. In general I don't get enthusiastic about German wartime stuff, but that jet, man, I love that thing.


Just as a side note, I'm not trying to be a troll, but I just find the subject of aeroplanes, and especially jets with tailwheels, (that Supermarine Attacker, my goodness what an attractive aircraft!) a lot more interesting than this circuitous never-ending debate about who deserves whose respect. There are a lot of low-time pilots I work with (well, a few anyway) who have earned my respect, and there are some high-time pilots I have met who have somehow bumbled their way through a long career of semi-competence without a scratch. There are some pilots who post here who are approaching apotheosis in the aviation world with the scope and breadth of their experience, others who are slightly less salty but can't control their frustration at the lack of respect you get on online forums (truly the lowest form of communication, no?), there are even one or two guys here who deliberately portray themselves as old salts when I happen to know they aren't. I can't decide if they are doing it on purpose or not.

I'm still an "aviation enthusiast". I like talking about tailwheel jets, or floatplanes, or radial engines, or antique or historical aircraft, and also navigation, and how engines work. I have no interest in this "cultural angst" that a lot of you guys seem to be experiencing. Seems frustrating and it bores the crap out of me. I've had my little spats here and there, but I have an inherent love of mischief and sometimes I can't help reaching out and yanking a tail feather now and then.

And some of you guys would come across a lot smarter if your spelling and grammar were a bit better. Cat Driver's spelling and grammar are excellent, and he says he only finished grade ten.

Now, the Supermarine Attacker... has anyone actually seen one?

[Liquid Charlie]

I know Cat. I used to have to walk up hill, in bare feet, in the middle of winter, five miles, to and from work as well. Nobody is impressed anymore.
Illya

I was lucky -- I drove the tractor -- but then again there is nothing like meadow muffins oozing between your toes -- ah the days of my youth spent on the farm -- boys were boys and the cows were nervous -- and the airplane parked in the pasture field ---

[frozen solid]

I was thinking about the "anonymity" issue. Some people take pride in NOT being anonymous, and as a general principle I respect that a great deal. As for myself, I'm genuinely worried that if my boss, who I respect, knew I actually participated in this goat-show forum, he would have less respect for the way I choose to spend my time. Online forums are genuinely the lowest form of communication. We would all probably benefit from going outside and enjoying the lovely weather.

I think this particular forum would in fact benefit from GREATER anonymity. I think user-names should periodically be reset in order to level the playing field. It would be great if, every month in order to log on, you were made to change your user name. Think about how great that would be: Your opinion, whatever it is at the time, would be perceived as just having come out of the online aviation Gestalt, and you wouldn't be held unduly accountable for your perceived personality issues... unless you had such a strong personality that you became immediately recognizable no matter what you name is. I think that would be terrific!

[Shiny Side Up]

Now, the Supermarine Attacker... has anyone actually seen one?

I doubt it, unless they've seen the one remaining one in the Fleet Air Arm museum. One of those neat things you find on Wiki though come from that page:

On 23 May 1950, Vickers test pilot Les Colquhoun was flying the first production Attacker F.1 WA469; he was testing the effectiveness of the air brakes. On the third of two dives, the outer portion of the starboard wing folded up and the ailerons became locked. Colquhoun decided not to eject and managed to do a high-speed landing at Chilbolton, in the course of which he used all but the last 100 yards (90m) of the runway and burst a tyre. He had saved the aircraft so the cause of the incident could be discovered and was awarded the George Medal for his efforts.

Now that deserves respect.

[Meatservo]

I think that would be terrific!

Amen, brother!!

[frozen solid]

Now, the Supermarine Attacker... has anyone actually seen one?

I doubt it, unless they've seen the one remaining one in the Fleet Air Arm museum. One of those neat things you find on Wiki though come from that page:

On 23 May 1950, Vickers test pilot Les Colquhoun was flying the first production Attacker F.1 WA469; he was testing the effectiveness of the air brakes. On the third of two dives, the outer portion of the starboard wing folded up and the ailerons became locked. Colquhoun decided not to eject and managed to do a high-speed landing at Chilbolton, in the course of which he used all but the last 100 yards (90m) of the runway and burst a tyre. He had saved the aircraft so the cause of the incident could be discovered and was awarded the George Medal for his efforts.

Now that deserves respect.

It sure does. I wonder how many "Spitfire" parts that ting has. The landing gear in particular looks awfully familiar.

[NWONT]

Well, Cat, maybe Ilya isn't impressed but I am. Not many people work like that anymore in this day and age. We had piss poor engines from Oklahoma the failed or blew up constantly and I changed many in the bush, more than I can count. Many times I asked myself why I would work this hard under those conditions for small pay. Many times I said "When I get back to the hanger and civilization I'm packing my shit and heading down the road". When I got thawed out and settled down I decided to stick with it. Guess part of it was I wouldn't let it beat me. I saw many that walked away and went to better jobs in the mines or paper mills. Maybe I wanted to earn the respect I had for the others who went before me. Like I said, I have much respect for those that battled the elements to move the freight to the settlements. The challenges were huge and accidents happened often. We had a good thread going on here a few years back about the DC-3 days but that got shit canned in a hurry. Too bad. That part of northern history will be gone as we hit the ground one at a time.