And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screening

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boxcut
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by boxcut »

But more than that I am insulted that some easy badge to get is worth more than my ATPL which took YEARS to achieve.
I do not feel secure that ANYONE without direct control of the aircraft is exempt from screening.
Yes, because if you have direct control of an aircraft, you can't possibly be dangerous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by complexintentions »

@teacher

Sorry, but you're just displaying your own ignorance. Becoming a CBSA officer is hardly an "easy badge", that's an embarrassingly naive statement. They are full-fledged law enforcement officers, and now carrying deadly weapons and the responsibility that goes along with that. They swear similar oaths as police officers and have to possess the same knowledge of the law. It's nice that you're proud of your ATPL but it has absolutely nothing to do with law enforcement. The fact that you feel insulted is only feeding the stereotype of egotistical pilots. Anyone with enough money can buy a pilot's license. But there's actually a screening process for CBSA officers. A comparison between the relative trustworthiness of a police officer, CBSA officer, or military officer versus a pilot is always going to flatter the former by a mile. They are subjected to FAR more in-depth, and recurring checks than we are.

If you don't feel secure that people sworn to protect you aren't being searched the same as you, you might as well just stay home and hide under the bed. I'm pretty confident in saying that pilots have killed far more people than CBSA officers.
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by ahramin »

boxcut wrote:Yes, because if you have direct control of an aircraft, you can't possibly be dangerous.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990
And security screening would have prevented this incident how? The point is (and you're helping to make with that link) pilots should be the first people to be exempt from screening if anyone is. You have to trust the pilots whether they've been screened or not.

What is the reason or rationale behind exempting CBSA from screening?
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by teacher »

complexintentions wrote:@teacher

Sorry, but you're just displaying your own ignorance. Becoming a CBSA officer is hardly an "easy badge", that's an embarrassingly naive statement. They are full-fledged law enforcement officers, and now carrying deadly weapons and the responsibility that goes along with that. They swear similar oaths as police officers and have to possess the same knowledge of the law. It's nice that you're proud of your ATPL but it has absolutely nothing to do with law enforcement. The fact that you feel insulted is only feeding the stereotype of egotistical pilots. Anyone with enough money can buy a pilot's license. But there's actually a screening process for CBSA officers. A comparison between the relative trustworthiness of a police officer, CBSA officer, or military officer versus a pilot is always going to flatter the former by a mile. They are subjected to FAR more in-depth, and recurring checks than we are.

If you don't feel secure that people sworn to protect you aren't being searched the same as you, you might as well just stay home and hide under the bed. I'm pretty confident in saying that pilots have killed far more people than CBSA officers.
Strict screening? The required authorities have the last 20 years of my life on file, finger prints, retina scan and who knows what else has been viewed and researched since than. Sworn to protect? Yup, never been a corrupt customs or police officer ever eh?

One of the main reasons we are screened according to someone in the know is in case we are compromised and forced to smuggle something across against our will. What's to say the same thing won't happen to a CBSA or police officer?

Ego? No. Pride in the licenses and experience I hold? Yes. Once again, pilots disrespecting our own profession and dumbing down our training and licenses. We do a disservice to ourselves when we speak this way. Anyone with $200,000 can be a doctor or dentist too if they spent the money and put the time in. You don't see them putting down their profession like we do.
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by Oxi »

Does a RAIC pass do anything these days when your travelling?
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by AuxBatOn »

I have a security clearance that most people don't even know exist (your 10 years of your life on file is nothing!), fly aircraft armed with leathal weapons, I am trusted to lead people and make life and death decisions but I have no issues with going through security at an airport. It's a small price to pay to make things transparent.

Whether you are crew, security officer, customs, airport manager, you should be going through a layer of security before going into a secured area.
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by rigpiggy »

complexintentions wrote:@teacher

. But there's actually a screening process for CBSA officers. A comparison between the relative trustworthiness of a police officer, CBSA officer, or military officer versus a pilot is always going to flatter the former by a mile. They are subjected to FAR more in-depth, and recurring checks than we are.

If you don't feel secure that people sworn to protect you aren't being searched the same as you, you might as well just stay home and hide under the bed. I'm pretty confident in saying that pilots have killed far more people than CBSA officers.
I wont even touch the police officer one as there are more than enough examples, but let's examine military security scrutiny, hmm selling sub info to the russkies, computer technologies to the Chinese, of everybody's favorite cross dressing colonel......

Where does it say they will protect. The SCOC has waffles back and forth as to "duty to protect "

"I solemnly swear that I will  faithfully, diligently and  impartially execute and  perform the duties required of  me as a member of the Royal  Canadian Mounted Police,  and will well and truly obey  and perform all lawful orders  and instructions that I receive  as such, without fear, favour  or affection of or toward any  person. So help me God."

CBSA has its duty to protect

Protecting food safety, plant and animal health, and Canada's resource base

auxbaton I agree completely, problem as always who watches the watchmen
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by complexintentions »

Pulling out the examples of corrupt cops is as useless as pointing out examples of pilots who have crashed airplanes deliberately. Both exist, and screening won't stop either of the two types. So what was the point again? The screening is looking for items deemed a threat to flight safety, whether brought deliberately or accidentally.

There's a key difference between pilots and law enforcement officers. Police officers and CBSA carry guns and asps and pepper spray. Pilots do not. Surely even the dimmest bulb can see it doesn't make much sense to screen someone for weapons who is permitted, nay mandated, to carry them?

Trying to extend that analogy to pilots because of their access to the plane's controls is weak. If you really feel the threat of suicide-by-pilot is that great, you should lobby to have psychiatrists doing screening at the checkpoints, not metal detectors.

Don't preach to me about having pride in my profession. If a CBSA officer came on their counterpart forum and started talking trash about how pilots are just glorified bus drivers who push buttons, I'd hope some pilot would pipe up and point out our job is a little more than that. But teacher's whole premise is that a CBSA officer's job is somehow inferior to ours. You want respect for our job, but you are totally disrespectful to someone else's? Hmm.

I'm enormously proud of my job. But when I read comments about pilots whining about having to go through security while CBSA officers don't, I can't feel much pride in the profession.
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by frozen solid »

Good point.

I would like to submit however that the issue under discussion should be whether or not CATSA agents should go through security. Quite aside from a discussion about whose job has more merit or whatever, should there be a member of any profession who doesn't have to go through security? You can talk about the absurdity of someone who carries a weapon as part of their job needing to go through security, but the system is FULL of absurdities. There is an axe in most cockpits. They give you a real steak knife on Air Canada if you're in first class and order the steak. Even people who are mandated to have officially issued weapons might also be carrying one concealed that isn't mandated, or legal.

You either trust everyone or you trust no-one. The idea of a corrupt CATSA agent is just as plausible or absurd as the idea of a corrupt pilot, or cop, or Air Force officer, or magician or train conductor. You guys are so obsessed with "status" that you're missing the point entirely: should there be ANYONE who is exempt from security? NO! You can't profess to believe in "security" if you're already making a private list in your mind of who it applies to and who it doesn't. That's counter to the entire philosophy of "security".

What's the excuse for skipping security? Too busy? Think it's silly? You're too important? You've already been screened, so there's no way that anyone like you could ever get away with it or be corrupt? Guess again!
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by complexintentions »

Your mistake is that you are equating the larger concept of "Security", with what CATSA does to you when you go through some screening point. That procedure is only a small part of the process and I would suggest a fairly minor one. Just because someone is not subject to a metal detector does not mean that they've been exempted from all security scrutiny. You're starting from a position of fallacy.

The CATSA process is largely theatre. Seriously. It does have a purpose and a place - you still need procedures to guard against the cranks, the mentally ill, the people who think it's ok to carry a canister of bbq fluid or hunting knife on board, or yes, some zealot with explosives in his underwear. But a determined, premeditated attempt on an airliner or airport is not going to be stopped by our friends at the metal detector alone, their heroic fantasies aside. The heavy lifting of security is done elsewhere. It has far more to do with intelligence gathering and sharing, than a minimum-wage earner fending off entitled flight crew.
You either trust everyone or you trust no-one.
What nonsense. Of course there are different levels of trust. Fascinatingly, they usually correlate to different levels of responsibility. It's absolutist statements like this that totally deflate an argument. Acknowledging that - whether you like it or not, agree with it or not - different roles come with different procedures is the first step in not painting the whole world in black and white. I hate to tell you, but there is no procedure or policy that can provide 100% security. So like all risk management, it comes down to percentages. The enhancement to overall security, of having known-armed, law enforcement personnel screened to the same degree as the general public, is infinitesimally small versus allowing them to bypass screening. That is evidently the conclusion reached by those who assess security risk. I agree.

The more this "debate" continues, the more it just seems apparent it's completely motivated by the very Canadian idea that everyone is equal. Which is of course, not true. Unless one can honestly say they lie awake at night fretting over CBSA and police officers plotting to blow up an airplane, why not just admit it irks big pilot egos to see them able to skip an unpleasantry pilots face every day?
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by Flybabe »

Oxi wrote:Does a RAIC pass do anything these days when your travelling?
My experience with the RAIC is that I get extra screening. :?
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by Gannet167 »

Every day at dozens of airports in Canada, hundreds of people board airplanes and never go through any security. At most FBO's, you may have to give the girl at the counter a wink so she knows to press the little button under her desk (the one that I press on my own when she's not around) and let me airside - that is if the door to the airside is even locked. How many of those oil workers boarding a plane have nail clippers? Yikes!

My point is the notion of security is a farce. It's a dramatic display for the public's consumption (As much as they complain). The fact that CBSA is not screened only confirms this. Screening them wouldn't build any more illusion of safety. There are a million ways to smuggle anything you want air side and get it to almost anyone you want to get it to in the crew or the passengers. El Al's system, I would suggest, does not really allow for this. That's why they laugh at us.

In any other "secure" environment everyone gets screened. In particular, the screeners themselves. My guess: at some point some CBSA agent will be implicated in something. And then the public will have concerns and we'll spread the illusion over onto them as well so help ease their fears. Again, it'll still be for the purpose of illusion, not actual security itself. It'll move along a sliding scale of what appears to provide security according to the flavor of the week.
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by TG »

Stu Pidasso wrote: You do understand that "Pilots" actually fly the "Airplane?" With 70,000 kilos of JP4, I don't need 110 ml of toothpaste to do harm.

Then again, the monkeys do run the zoo!
I always though that crew were to be screened because it is pretty easy to pretend being part of one at an airport.
You can buy any kind of uniform on line.
And if a passport can be faked so licences or badges.

Glad this crazy guy got screened and had no valid credentials to show before getting caught :wink:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/03/22 ... rways-jet/
A 61-year-old French man was arrested at Philadelphia International Airport and charged with impersonating a pilot after airline officials found him in the cockpit of a plane scheduled for takeoff, police said Friday.

The crew of a US Airways flight bound for West Palm Beach, Fla., found Philippe Jernnard of La Rochelle, France, in the jump seat behind the pilot on Wednesday evening, removing him after he was unable to produce valid credentials and became argumentative, police said.

Jernnard, who was a ticketed passenger, was wearing a white shirt with an Air France logo and had a black jacket with epaulets on the shoulders, police said. Officer Christine O’Brien said police found him in possession of a counterfeit Air France crew member ID card.
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by teacher »

I always though that crew were to be screened because it is pretty easy to pretend being part of one at an airport.
You can buy any kind of uniform on line.
And if a passport can be faked so licences or badges.
I'm not against having my pass checked but waiting in line to have my bags x-rayed? Really? I have a biometric ID that requires a valid RAIC AND either a finger print or retina scan. I don't expect to just walk through.
But teacher's whole premise is that a CBSA officer's job is somehow inferior to ours. You want respect for our job, but you are totally disrespectful to someone else's? Hmm.
Inferior? No. Any less if a risk to air safety than me? Definitely no! If I walk through a metal detector so should they. If my bags get x-rayed so should there's. I may come across as sounding high and mighty and that's not the case. I just feel that the folks flying the plane and have a VESTED INTEREST in the safety of the flight should not be treated as a security threat while someone with a newly minted CBSA badge sails through. If I'm a potential security threat than so are they. If they are considered safe (after a biometric RAIC scan) than so should I.

How do they know that the CBSA officer isn't packing more heat than they are legally allowed (as far as I know CBSA officers are not armed at airports) What if something else is being smuggled in? How are we to know?
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by frozen solid »

complexintentions wrote:Your mistake is that you are equating the larger concept of "Security", with what CATSA does to you when you go through some screening point. That procedure is only a small part of the process and I would suggest a fairly minor one. Just because someone is not subject to a metal detector does not mean that they've been exempted from all security scrutiny. You're starting from a position of fallacy.

The CATSA process is largely theatre. Seriously. It does have a purpose and a place - you still need procedures to guard against the cranks, the mentally ill, the people who think it's ok to carry a canister of bbq fluid or hunting knife on board, or yes, some zealot with explosives in his underwear. But a determined, premeditated attempt on an airliner or airport is not going to be stopped by our friends at the metal detector alone, their heroic fantasies aside. The heavy lifting of security is done elsewhere. It has far more to do with intelligence gathering and sharing, than a minimum-wage earner fending off entitled flight crew.
You either trust everyone or you trust no-one.
What nonsense. Of course there are different levels of trust. Fascinatingly, they usually correlate to different levels of responsibility. It's absolutist statements like this that totally deflate an argument. Acknowledging that - whether you like it or not, agree with it or not - different roles come with different procedures is the first step in not painting the whole world in black and white. I hate to tell you, but there is no procedure or policy that can provide 100% security. So like all risk management, it comes down to percentages. The enhancement to overall security, of having known-armed, law enforcement personnel screened to the same degree as the general public, is infinitesimally small versus allowing them to bypass screening. That is evidently the conclusion reached by those who assess security risk. I agree.

The more this "debate" continues, the more it just seems apparent it's completely motivated by the very Canadian idea that everyone is equal. Which is of course, not true. Unless one can honestly say they lie awake at night fretting over CBSA and police officers plotting to blow up an airplane, why not just admit it irks big pilot egos to see them able to skip an unpleasantry pilots face every day?
Tone it down a notch will you pal? I can't understand what's making you so angry. It's no stretch to imagine the next wave of airport fuckkery being abetted by corrupted "security" employees. If the whole thing is theatre then it doesn't hurt anything at all to compel every employee regardless of status, rank, or how many lethal weapons they have on their plane, to take the little walk through the scanner. If it's all theatre, it would be more convincing if everybody was seen to be playing by the same rules. I have no objection at all to being shaken down by security at the airport. I also fail to see why a security employee should have an objection to the same.
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by Stu Pidasso »

The RAIC system is a joke and frankly every Pilot in Canada should mail them to the Minister of Transport, with a note of where she can put them.

I would be far happier to stand in line with the passengers and receive better treatment from the CATSA clowns.
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by Tanker299 »

No one should be exempt. But if your read the law (and the new amendment in the gazette) about firearms is that the pilot can have access to a weapon. The pilot can also tell anyone on the plane RCMP CBSA etc that they may not bring a firearm or that they must store it as instructed. Not that that's likely to happen but it's the law. The new amendment in the gazette says peace officers also may have access to a loaded firearm so we come to another crossing point. By law the Pilot In Command is a Peace Officer and has all the rights duties and responsibilities of said title. There are lots of US pilots carrying a gun (not debating if that's right or if it does anything) and do they not bring there service weapon with them when they come north? CATSA only looks for weapons not the stuff a pilot flying domestically is going to be smuggling. At the end of the day a gun or a knife is not going to tip the balance of power that much more in the pilots favour, plus he does have a nice axe in the cockpit.
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by Stu Pidasso »

CATSA - oh yes, these are the same Mensa members that found the pipe b*mb in Edmonton. Gave it back to the passenger and said; "have a nice day, bone-joour."

I feel so much safer they are searching the Pilots. Heaven knows the Captain may have a Swiss army knife he is planning to hold - to his OWN throat.
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by complexintentions »

Here's a thought.

Why don't pilots just do their damn jobs, and let other people do theirs? :mrgreen:

I get it, pilots are Experts In Everything, but it still gets a little tiresome.

Anyway, I hope everyone feels better after venting, and actually accomplishing nothing. I'll keep on smiling at the cute girl running the x-ray, and being thankful that it isn't my job.

If it's your day to fall victim to those dastardly CBSA agents planting something on your plane, then it's just your day. I prefer to spend my limited resources of time and energy on things that have a statistically measurable chance of actually happening! :lol:
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Re: And still, CBSA agents are exempt from security screenin

Post by arcticheliwrench »

Oxi wrote:Does a RAIC pass do anything these days when your travelling?
You guys all know that no matter the airport of issue of a RAIC, it entitles you to take the NEXUS or Priority Line to get to the front at any airport in Canada that has them, right? I mean you still have to be screened, but it sure beats waiting in line.

I do it at YVR and YOW all the time.
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