Cherokee spins?

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carbeerater
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Cherokee spins?

Post by carbeerater » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:11 pm

Are Cherokees rated for intentional spins?
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by iflyforpie » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:16 pm

IIRC, some are. I believe the Cherokee 140 is approved for spins. Too lazy to look up the Type Certificate Data Sheet, but the info on specific models would likely be there..... also on the required placards in the aircraft itself.
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by slam525i » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:18 pm

Section 2
.25 Placards

Spins are prohibited for normal and utility category.

(I only have manuals for the -161 and-181. Not sure about the other ones.)
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by carbeerater » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:20 pm

Ok thanks ifp, I was browsing planes for sale and there seemed to be a great deal on a particular Cherokee in Alberta. I don't think I would want to purchase an aircraft that wasn't rated for spins.
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by carbeerater » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:21 pm

Ok thanks for that info slam! No Cherokee for me!
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by slam525i » Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:54 pm

Carb, I'm a little curious why you want an airplane rated for spins. Are you planning on having it for PPL training? I don't really see any other reason to need a plane that is rated for spinning.

Don't get me wrong, when (and where) I was doing my PPL, spins weren't considered "OMFG! Spins are killer deadly!" I've spun those little 152 and 172 countless times, but now everyone at FTUs treat spins as if they're so dangerous, you are taught only to avoid them (Not sure what the PPL requirements are now. Demo only I think?). Question is, do you really want to spin a plane you own? It does a number on the gyros I'm told. I remember, in the "bad old days", being told "Don't spin in XXX. Its gyro is still good! If you're gonna do a bunch of spins, take YYY instead. Its gyro is crapped out anyway!" If you wanna do it for fun, you really should be looking at something more aerobatic and maybe learn aerobatics properly instead. The PA28 doesn't really spin that easily anyway.

That said, I think it depends on the model of Cherokee. I think some of the -140s are okay for spins (as IFP said. I dunno, never flown the -140). Something about the CG in the other models, and more likely, Piper not wanting the liability.
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by carbeerater » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:36 pm

slam525i wrote:Carb, I'm a little curious why you want an airplane rated for spins. Are you planning on having it for PPL training? I don't really see any other reason to need a plane that is rated for spinning.

Don't get me wrong, when (and where) I was doing my PPL, spins weren't considered "OMFG! Spins are killer deadly!" I've spun those little 152 and 172 hrscountless times, but now everyone at FTUs treat spins as if they're so dangerous, you are taught only to avoid them (Not sure what the PPL requirements are now. Demo only I think?). Question is, do you really want to spin a plane you own? It does a number on the gyros I'm told. I remember, in the "bad old days", being told "Don't spin in XXX. Its gyro is still good! If you're gonna do a bunch of spins, take YYY instead. Its gyro is crapped out anyway!" If you wanna do it for fun, you really should be looking at something more aerobatic and maybe learn aerobatics properly instead. The PA28 doesn't really spin that easily anyway.

That said, I think it depends on the model of Cherokee. I think some of the -140s are okay for spins (as IFP said. I dunno, never flown the -140). Something about the CG in the other models, and more likely, Piper not wanting the liability.
Well, I'm looking at an entry level/first airplane. I would love to be able to afford something with a little more capability like a super decathalon or spitfite but $$$ is a factor! I am a cpl so not for training, more for practice. I have had a great deal of spin training but am nervous about spinning some of the higher time Cessnas that I've flown (10000+hrs). Also most rental agreements prohibit spins without an instructor... $70/hr I'd rather not spend.

I have always enjoyed spins and really couldn't give two farts in a windstorm about gyros! I'd be happy with a basic vfr machine with reasonable cross country abilities and the option to go out and watch the ground go 'round, hence the inquiry as to the spinability (is that a word? ) of the Cherokee.

And yes most people recoil in horror when presented with the possibility of doing spins! I have flown with instructors who were ashen after just one; I, on the other hand can't wait to do the next one...
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by Shiny Side Up » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:35 am

slam525i wrote:Section 2
.25 Placards

Spins are prohibited for normal and utility category.

(I only have manuals for the -161 and-181. Not sure about the other ones.)
The "1" models are the tapered wing models that weren't spinable. The Hershey bar winged fixed gear ones all are. 140, 150, 160 and 180.
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by fish4life » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:12 am

Citabria's can be bought for cheap if you want aerobatic ish
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by Colonel Sanders » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:22 am

I will be attacked for this, but before
you do acro in a Citabria, please inspect
the wooden spar very, very carefully for
cracking, esp around the strut pickup.

I strongly recommend replacing the wings
with the much more rigid metal wings.

It is very difficult to do acro in a Citabria,
which is really just a Champ that someone
pushed some paper on.
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by PilotDAR » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:10 am

It is very difficult to do acro in a Citabria,
which is really just a Champ that someone
pushed some paper on.
Perfect, so when you succeed, the skills will really be there!

Thread drift.....

Do your homework on the reparability of Cherokees before purchasing, and have a very comprehensive pre purchase inspection on the one you're considering. From my experience doing some repair approvals on some, and not being able to on a couple of others (leaving them permanently grounded) I am leery of them from a long term maintenance point of view. I have been told by Piper fairly directly that there are some models they do not wish to support with parts. I quote the Piper tech rep: (spoken to me, with respect to a Seneca) "Sir that's a 40 year old plane, we have not seen it in 40 years, and we don't want it in the air any more." That rather alarms me from a long term product support perspective. Unlike most Cessnas, low wing Pipers employed special extrusions for some parts (wing spars), which are either obtained as parts (some can't be), or you are grounded. Cessnas mostly use built up sheet metal, which can be reproduced if needed. Cessna also provides more comprehensive structural repair instructions for their aircraft, allowing them to be returned to service. A hail damaged Cherokee is technically unairworthy, as Piper does not offer a definition for negligible damage (which does not required repair). Just do your homework to assure you'll have a plane that you can maintain airworthy.

Returning to the thread, I applaud your desire to maintain spinning skills. It is unfortunate that so few models are spin approved. I do not have concerns spinning well maintained high time metal spin approved aircraft. I do agree that older wood spar planes should be aerobatted with caution.
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by I_Drive_Planes » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:08 am

carbeerater wrote:
Well, I'm looking at an entry level/first airplane. I would love to be able to afford something with a little more capability like a super decathalon or spitfite but $$$ is a factor! I am a cpl so not for training, more for practice. I have had a great deal of spin training but am nervous about spinning some of the higher time Cessnas that I've flown (10000+hrs). Also most rental agreements prohibit spins without an instructor... $70/hr I'd rather not spend.

I have always enjoyed spins and really couldn't give two farts in a windstorm about gyros! I'd be happy with a basic vfr machine with reasonable cross country abilities
My Cherokee 180 is not certified for spins. However in terms of capability it easily bests both the Super Decathalon and the Spitfire, it will carry 4 adults and full fuel! It also has very reasonable cross country abilities. I'm writing this post from the Trump Tower in Las Vegas, I flew in to KVGT yesterday.

Watching the earth spin round and round is fun, but I don't find it as thrilling as watching unfamiliar country slip by under the wing.

My advice to you (as a newly minted airplane owner) is that if you want to do aerobatics go and buy an acro machine. If you want an all rounder don't exclude a type because it isn't certified to perform one maneuver.
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:21 am

Only the Cherokee 140 is certified for spins. The details are in the flight manual supplement
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:03 am

Go get a Pitts and have some real fun.
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by carbeerater » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:19 pm

Colonel Sanders wrote:I will be attacked for this, but before
you do acro in a Citabria, please inspect
the wooden spar very, very carefully for
cracking, esp around the strut pickup.

I strongly recommend replacing the wings
with the much more rigid metal wings.

It is very difficult to do acro in a Citabria,
which is really just a Champ that someone
pushed some paper on.
Why isn't the scout rated for aerobatics?
Aren't they the same plane?
I thought the scout had metal spars too? (Standard)
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Last edited by carbeerater on Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by carbeerater » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:26 pm

schnitzel2k3 wrote:Go get a Pitts and have some real fun.
That sounds awesome and I would love to do some serious aerobatic training but I hear the cross country performance is marginal :lol:

Maybe this deserves a new thread but what would be the "go to"/ "do everything" plane of choice for most?

Criteria: Fully aerobatic
Functional cross country (2 up with let's say minimum 300nm range)
Float and ski capable as a bonus? :rolleyes:
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by iflyforpie » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:33 pm

carbeerater wrote: Why isn't the scout rated for aerobatics?
Aren't they the same plane?
I thought the scout had metal spars too? (Standard)
Again, it has to do with paper pushing.

The Scout has the wing certified to the same ultimate load, but the max Gs are less, so it can have a higher gross weight.

It kind of sucks somedays flying a 150 HP 7GCBC with a 1600 lb gross that can go upside down when all you want to do is carry a couple hundred extra pounds of camping gear like your buddy does is his Super Cub.
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by iflyforpie » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:46 pm

Back on topic. As PilotDAR said, the support for Cherokees is not as good as Cessna, and spam can Pipers are not as generic as most other light aircraft in terms of parts. I have a -235 I take care of that has a bad shimmy. Need a new nose wheel steering arm. $1800, made to order, 120 day lead time.

That being said, most of the Cherokee series is dead simple mechanically.... and since they weren't as popular for training and aerial work, most are low hours and low priced. As long as it has been flown frequently (most airports have at least one Cherokee that is a permanent landmark, run away as fast as you can), they are great airplanes. Good Lycoming engines, minimal parts count, very simple systems (only a couple of simple fuel pumps added in comparison to a 172--and no flap motor), very light weight and usually a bit more useful load than a comparable Cessna.

Lots of things I didn't like about the Cherokee though. The one tiny door. Having to climb up the wing to get in. No shade. No big windows to open. Poor view down. No place to park hangarage helpers like boats and convertibles under the wings. Anemic control response. Poor climb rate. Unimpressive cruise (all spam can Piper owners add knots to their true airspeed.... I never found them any faster than any Cessna product with the same horsepower).
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by Shiny Side Up » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:04 pm

Big Pistons Forever wrote:Only the Cherokee 140 is certified for spins. The details are in the flight manual supplement
My Cherokee 180 book says otherwise. :D

Edit: If you ant an oddball cross country/ acro plane, get a Musketeer C23, has the better engine, they do nice aileron rolls.
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:08 pm

Shiny Side Up wrote:
Big Pistons Forever wrote:Only the Cherokee 140 is certified for spins. The details are in the flight manual supplement
My Cherokee 180 book says otherwise. :D
Well yah learn something new every single day :D
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by iflyforpie » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:22 pm

Shiny Side Up wrote:
Big Pistons Forever wrote:Only the Cherokee 140 is certified for spins. The details are in the flight manual supplement
My Cherokee 180 book says otherwise. :D

Edit: If you ant an oddball cross country/ acro plane, get a Musketeer C23, has the better engine, they do nice aileron rolls.

Yep. I used to fly the Sundowner (updated Musketeer with an extra door on the LH side). The pitch and roll rate on that plane is phenomenal (for the type of plane it is) it is more comfortable than a Bonanza or Baron IMHO, and in typical Beech fashion it is a luxury vehicle amongst econoboxes.

Downsides are high takeoff and landing speeds and slow climbs due to a portly fuselage attached to wings smaller in area than those of a 150, poor cruise speeds (no faster than a Cherokee 140 on 180HP), and of course..... typical Beech 'if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it' parts values.
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by carbeerater » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:23 pm

Could one potentially "push the paperwork" on a scout, perhaps by somehow certifying it at a lower gw, thus allowing a higher g loading? Or is that a type certificate thing?

Sorry for the naivete! Just learning over here...
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by Shiny Side Up » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:26 pm

Its ok, the Cherokee lineage is terribly confused with marketing Mumbo jumbo. The old Cherokees were the ones that were all spinable, first the 150 and 160 models, then the 180, then the 140. Later on the 180 was called the Charger, then not, then the Cherokee D, or maybe the other way around (I don't think there was a Cherokee "B" or "C") and the later production dropped the spin ability. the later ones I think you can tell by the different window shape and a slight widening of the cabin. Not even all the 140s were the same, though I think all of them are spinable, both the 2 seat and the 2+2 seat models.

I think I've maybe spun all the ones that can be spun? Not sure. The only thing notable about the 180's spin was that with more power you could get it to really whip around (relatively speaking) when it did spin, and it tended to lose more altitude per rotation. Otherwise it was pretty spin resistant like the rest of the Cherokees, and had a pretty predictable characteristic, which one might attribute to the Hershey bar.
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by carbeerater » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:07 pm

I_Drive_Planes wrote:
carbeerater wrote:
Well, I'm looking at an entry level/first airplane. The I would love to be able to afford something with a little more capability like a super decathalon or spitfite but $$$ is a factor! I am a cpl so not for training, more for practice. I have had a great deal of spin training but am nervous about spinning some of the higher time Cessnas that I've flown (10000+hrs). Also most rental agreements prohibit spins without an instructor... $70/hr I'd rather not spend.

I have always enjoyed spins and really couldn't give two farts in a windstorm about gyros! I'd be happy with a basic vfr machine with reasonable cross country abilities
My Cherokee 180 is not certified for spins. However in terms of capability it easily bests both the Super Decathalon and the Spitfire, it will carry 4 adults and full fuel! It also has very reasonable cross country abilities. I'm writing this post from the Trump Tower in Las Vegas, I flew in to KVGT yesterday.

Watching the earth spin round and round is fun, but I don't find it as thrilling as watching unfamiliar country slip by under the wing.

My advice to you (as a newly minted airplane owner) is that if you want to do aerobatics go and buy an acro machine. If you want an all rounder don't exclude a type because it isn't certified to perform one maneuver.
Great advice idp, so far my most memorable experiences have been the longer trips, but I still can't fathom the thought of owning (paying for) something that can't perform the full range of maneuvers.

Maybe speed and money make up for that?!
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Re: Cherokee spins?

Post by carbeerater » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:10 pm

carbeerater wrote:
schnitzel2k3 wrote:Go get a Pitts and have some real fun.
That sounds awesome and I would love to do some serious aerobatic training but I hear the cross country performance is marginal :lol:

Maybe this deserves a new thread but what would be the "go to"/ "do everything" plane of choice for most?

Criteria: Fully aerobatic
Functional cross country (2 up with let's say minimum 300nm range)
Float and ski capable as a bonus? :rolleyes:
Does this aeroplane exist?
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