JetBlue blows an engine...PAX all think they're gonna die

[airspeed250]

Video here:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/09/19 ... ng-flight/

As the plane landed, the pilot told passengers to brace themselves, Delbaugh said.

Why are so many on Avcanada so quick to judge? I'm sure you would have just sat there with your family completely calm? Right. There appears to be a lot of smoke, especially in the front of the cabin. What do you want the pax to do upon landing? Sit and wait for fresh air?... maybe something is on fire now and the smoke gets worse and now nobody can see their way out in the next thirty seconds? Be reasonable. Error on the side of caution. It's a slide... who cares. If I'm in a sardine can, and the cabin has that amount of smoke in it, and the FA is yelling brace upon landing, I might be pulling that exit handle as well. I bet others sitting in the exit row would be giving the same instructions versus just sitting there all calm while they breathe through a mask. I'll cut a cheque to the airline for a new door and slide if they have a problem with it.

If you watch the CNN video, with ATC recording, the captain said they will evac once they landed. Why are people tearing a new one into those who opened the emergency exits? It appears they were properly instructed.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/18/us/jetbl ... index.html

[airspeed250]

Cabin crew screaming BRACE? After an engine failure? Popping chutes with no direction from the cockpit? Can you say, more training is needed here. Knew ha could.
Illya

Where did you get "with no direction from the cockpit" from? The pilots tell ATC they are going to evac, just after they landed.

[ajet32]

Engine failure, smoke in the cabin. Any crew that didn't do what this crew did including the Flight Attendants and their " BRACE BRACE BRACE" should be taken to task. That's what they are trained to do in any abnormal landing.
Smoke or fire is the most serious emergency in an airliner. Get it on the ground and get everyone out "NOW".
Failure to due that will result in a much more serious situation and very likely death and injuries.

Air Canada Cincinnati DC-9 Fire in aft lavatory.
Nationair Saudi Arabia DC-8 Fire in the cargo hold if I remember correctly.
Saudia L-1011 didn't evacuate and many if not all dead in the aircraft.

This crew deserves a great big well done!!

[GRK]

OK, so now that the media has been supplied with more fodder and the boys up front did actually call for a Evac, it does change the picture somewhat. At the risk, however slight, that we are arm chairing this a bit, I would caution that any evacuation must be thought all the way through carefully, as once you release the hounds there's no stopping. People will panic and pile yup at the doors and yes, they will bring everything they brought with them…bailing out and heading down the slides will almost always end up with a few getting hurt. A simple engine failure and return (even with some smoke tossed in) requires careful analysis and planning. The emergency landing was really only a simple single engine return and stop. To be calling BRACE BRACE only serves to push the panic button. People…this was NOT a situation where a crash was imminent…JB needs to make it clear to their crews where BRACE BRACE needs to be shouted…Too many bad movies and bad TV reporting. Ugh…sorry, woke up cranky!

[raven54]

Some of these posters are hilarious. A non-event. I'm pretty sure a smoked filled/human filled cabin following an engine failure qualifies as an "event." And to say that people are crazy for wanting to get out, and that you'd be all cool as a cucumber, telling other people to relax just proves that you are delusional! All I can say is good job to the crew, ship brought home with everyone whole!

[Jack In The Box]

So now we have JB passengers opening emergency exits on their own and evacuating without any command? I wonder if the engine was still running? My good friend who works for JB said that the Cabin Crew feel they are in command of the passenger cabin and have blown slides after a return for a problem without finding out if it's OK. In other words the jet is still on it's wheels, and there are two live pilots in the flight deck… who were pretty surprised that the evac command came from the back...pretty serious sh*t if you ask me...

It is industry standard for FAs to have the authority to initiate an evacuation if they feel endangered. You don't know that the pilots are alive and awake up front. If they're deploying slides for an engine failure, yes more training is needed but it's not unheard of for an fA to initiate the evacuation.

[GRK]

Dear Jack,

Partially true, but in your example it has to be obvious to the cabin crew that they need to initiate. Uncontrollable fire, fuselage break up, no response or command from the flight deck after an overrun or rejected takeoff being a few of the most imperative. Asiana is the perfect example, (despite the pilots stumbling over a cultural block) But in this case (JB) it was a tad grey perhaps. The aircraft was on it's wheels, the very fact that the CC were shouting BRACE BRACE indicated, to me at least, that the emergency training they receive as well as the briefing from the Captain, (if they ever did get one) is at best, wrong. A single engine landing is an abnormal landing, but at no time would it be considered a reason to shout to brace. That's reserved for a possible crash landing or loss of control after landing. Identification of the smoke made it harder, yes, but I wonder what sort of threat and error system JB uses, do they have any sort of emergency matrix for their crews to use as a guideline to keep the whole crew on the same page? I have a hunch that answer is no. By all accounts from an insider, there is a distinct disconnect aft of the flight deck door. American flight safety culture enables people to challenge traditional methods, which is a good thing, but it needs to also be made clear that proper communication between the FD and an in charge in the back is imperative. Otherwise you'll keep getting wrong procedures applied to simple situations. The "BRACE BRACE" call being the prime example here, it was a wrong procedure which caused confusion and panic.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

So now we have JB passengers opening emergency exits on their own and evacuating without any command? I wonder if the engine was still running? My good friend who works for JB said that the Cabin Crew feel they are in command of the passenger cabin and have blown slides after a return for a problem without finding out if it's OK. In other words the jet is still on it's wheels, and there are two live pilots in the flight deck… who were pretty surprised that the evac command came from the back...pretty serious sh*t if you ask me...

It is industry standard for FAs to have the authority to initiate an evacuation if they feel endangered. You don't know that the pilots are alive and awake up front. If they're deploying slides for an engine failure, yes more training is needed but it's not unheard of for an fA to initiate the evacuation.

You do know they're alive and well up front, they just landed the plane after all! Evacuating without direction from the cockpit is incredibly dangerous and should only be done in very serious circumstances (i.e. visually on fire or the aircraft broken up). In this case the crew told the tower they were evacuating but then after they were told there was no smoke from the engine they told the tower they would cancel the evacuation. Obviously they hadn't ordered an evac yet because they couldn't stop it after ordering it. It was the tower that told them the passengers were coming down the slides. After landing and coming to a stop it takes a couple of minutes to sort out the situation, run any necessary checklists and/or decide if an evacuation is warranted. FAs are trained to know this and know to wait a couple minutes. If they still don't hear anything they're usually supposed to try to contact the cockpit before taking any action.Evacuation down the slides is and should be a last resort. People are injured on every single evacuation and occasionally people are even killed. Chucking people down the slides is not something you do "just in case".

The other issue here is the flight attendants manually deploying the oxygen masks!! If there were a fire, the last thing you want is oxygen flowing into the cabin! Plus the little yellow cup masks are not sealed to your face so aren't going to keep the smoke out.

It certainly looks like there might be a few internal discussions and new training scenarios within JB after this.

[pdw]

re: BRACE BRACE

The pax are expecting oxygen masks to come down in the face of thick smoke (not what they're for but pax won't know that).

Now the pax are refusing to BRACE while panicking/reaching for masks themselves. The crew probably sees the turnaround and drop to the runway as a short event, but don't realize that no amount of explaining is going to settle the ordinary volks in the back who don't know this. How do the people in the back (or even the cabin attendants) know at that point its only an engine failure and not an explosion ?

As the individual (in-appropriate and un-necessary) row-by-row dispensing of masks begins to take place, it only led to considerable confusion and conflict with bracing itself. Thus (IMO) the insistance on yelling out BRACE BRACE; a futile attempt at keep pax focused on the one important thing. The hose on the mask is likely not even long enough for brace-ing with your head down at the knees anyway ... is it ? The bracing is only required at low altitude and the oxygen dispensing is only for high altitude use. Is it wiser to preflight-inform pax about the event of harmless cabin smoke from blown engines ... that the Captain can jettison pressurization to clear that kind of smoke very quickly ?

[Troubleshot]

I'm sorry but if there is smoke in the cabin and I am not sure where it is coming from...I'm getting out as soon as we slow to 20kph or less. I am not waiting for some FA to tell me when, seeing how his/her last job was at the GAP...I'm making my own call.

[GRK]

You sure about that?
I'm actually at a loss here…

[timel]

Is it wiser to preflight-inform pax about the event of harmless cabin smoke from blown engines ... that the Captain can jettison pressurization to clear that kind of smoke very quickly ?

What is harmful or harmless smoke? Any smoke should be considered as toxic, especially in flight no?

I'm sorry but if there is smoke in the cabin and I am not sure where it is coming from...I'm getting out as soon as we slow to 20kph or less. I am not waiting for some FA to tell me when, seeing how his/her last job was at the GAP...I'm making my own call.

I know that if glycol is sprayed on a 330 right engine cowling during de-icing ops, it will put smoke in the cabin. Not really toxic, but not good for PR.

[justwork]

Since we know no actual fact about what went on, but everyone lived, I'll say good job to the crew.

I'm sorry but if there is smoke in the cabin and I am not sure where it is coming from...I'm getting out as soon as we slow to 20kph or less. I am not waiting for some FA to tell me when, seeing how his/her last job was at the GAP...I'm making my own call.

Are there no hazards outside? Have you seen the photos of the mechanic that was ingested into a CFM? Looked like hamburger meat. I'll wait for an evacuation signal by either the former GAP employee or the pilot (who likely works part time at the gap still).

[pdw]

...passengers opening emergency exits on their own and evacuating without any command

The exit over the wing is beside a window seat, which I was offered once on one trip home from Calgary (brand new aircraft at the time); was asked, then briefed to open it in case of an emergency (a responsible person ? ... it must have been the suit and tie ).

In retrospect that had given me the permission to open if an un-forseen emergency developed, as my proximity to it during emergency stoppage makes me the only chance for quick escape once the fuselage stops moving. In the panic situation, the action of opening the door immediately was already pre-ordered by accepting that request. So I guess i can say I probably wouldn't have hesitated to get out on the wing either ...

[Jack In The Box]

JBS, neither of us are experts on JetBlue's internal operations.

You do know they're alive and well up front, they just landed the plane after all! Evacuating without direction from the cockpit is incredibly dangerous and should only be done in very serious circumstances (i.e. visually on fire or the aircraft broken up). In this case the crew told the tower they were evacuating but then after they were told there was no smoke from the engine they told the tower they would cancel the evacuation. Obviously they hadn't ordered an evac yet because they couldn't stop it after ordering it. It was the tower that told them the passengers were coming down the slides. After landing and coming to a stop it takes a couple of minutes to sort out the situation, run any necessary checklists and/or decide if an evacuation is warranted. FAs are trained to know this and know to wait a couple minutes. If they still don't hear anything they're usually supposed to try to contact the cockpit before taking any action.Evacuation down the slides is and should be a last resort. People are injured on every single evacuation and occasionally people are even killed. Chucking people down the slides is not something you do "just in case".

The other issue here is the flight attendants manually deploying the oxygen masks!! If there were a fire, the last thing you want is oxygen flowing into the cabin! Plus the little yellow cup masks are not sealed to your face so aren't going to keep the smoke out.

It certainly looks like there might be a few internal discussions and new training scenarios within JB after this.

1. Yes in this case that's true, however I wasn't referring to the JB incident specifically. I was talking about in general terms. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

2. No they're not, they're trained very expressed-ly: "NO DOUBT GET OUT." FA's at my airline have as much authority as us to command an evacuation. Of course, common sense dictates and most often prevails as most FA's are very well trained and very smart. Yes there are a few nuts out there who want to be the boss and wouldn't hesitate to make a scene for the heck of it but that's the exception not the rule I've found.

Completely agree about the people getting injured part on the evacuation. However, I would rather see all my passengers get broken bones than for even one to die because I hesitated on ordering an evacuation. The other day I was in the simulator and ran a rejected takeoff procedure for an engine fire. After shutting down I communicated with the FA who told me that there was nothing wrong, no smoke, and the fire fighters were outside fighting the fire. I told her to initiate a rapid deplanement (out the front door) as opposed to an evacuation. The instructor, who had been comfortably napping in the back seat up to this point, upon hearing that woke up and indignantly bellowed "ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! YOU'RE ON FIRE!!!" In our debrief I explained my reasons for my actions-avoiding injuries and keeping people out of the way of the fire fighters and away from the actual fire being among the chief of my reasons. He said to me "you know what? I see your points, and they are well thought out, but you're on fire...just get out! Insurance will cover injuries." Do I agree with him? Yes and no. Everyone is going to have a judgement call to make in that scenerio and everyone will have a different opinion of how to handle it (just the day before a different instructor ran the same drill with me and commended me for the same decision). When it comes down to it, anyone who makes either decision will have to stand in front of a court ruled by public opinion (and this is the part that really irks me) and explain what they did. Hopefully they will be on your side. The important thing is everyone survives.

Also, completely agree on the oxygen mask part being kind of useless but I don't blame the FA's for doing it (Though I do kind of chuckle).

Dear Jack,

Partially true, but in your example it has to be obvious to the cabin crew that they need to initiate. Uncontrollable fire, fuselage break up, no response or command from the flight deck after an overrun or rejected takeoff being a few of the most imperative. Asiana is the perfect example, (despite the pilots stumbling over a cultural block) But in this case (JB) it was a tad grey perhaps. The aircraft was on it's wheels, the very fact that the CC were shouting BRACE BRACE indicated, to me at least, that the emergency training they receive as well as the briefing from the Captain, (if they ever did get one) is at best, wrong. A single engine landing is an abnormal landing, but at no time would it be considered a reason to shout to brace. That's reserved for a possible crash landing or loss of control after landing. Identification of the smoke made it harder, yes, but I wonder what sort of threat and error system JB uses, do they have any sort of emergency matrix for their crews to use as a guideline to keep the whole crew on the same page? I have a hunch that answer is no. By all accounts from an insider, there is a distinct disconnect aft of the flight deck door. American flight safety culture enables people to challenge traditional methods, which is a good thing, but it needs to also be made clear that proper communication between the FD and an in charge in the back is imperative. Otherwise you'll keep getting wrong procedures applied to simple situations. The "BRACE BRACE" call being the prime example here, it was a wrong procedure which caused confusion and panic.

GRK, I agree, it WAS a tad grey. It's very easy for us to monday morning armchair this situation from our computers with the football game on in the background. However, I can tell you from experience that when the **** hits the fan like this you are NOT always making the same rational decisions you would make on 10 hours of sleep on a day off on a Saturday at the cabin.

I think this should underline the need for flight crews to remind themselves every day "This day COULD be the day I screw up so catastrophically" or "this day COULD be the day I need to be on my game to make some good decisions...." I guarentee you that the Asiana FO was not thinking "boy today could be the day I need to speak up and call my captain out...am I prepared to do that? No? I better stay home." Nor was the KLM captain at Tenerife thinking "Boy, today could be the day I am so rushed that I take off without clearance and kill 500 people." Nor was his FO thinking "today is the day I might have to put my reputation out on the line by calling out a very senior captain to save some lives." I'll end this tangent here. Obviously, it's impossible to get up every morning and think up of every scenerio that could happen and mentally prepare yourselves, but do everything you can to be on your A game! People have paid good money for you to take care of them and their families. They deserve it, and from what I've seen, there are still a lot of crews not putting in their best effort day in and day out.

[Jack In The Box]

I'm sorry but if there is smoke in the cabin and I am not sure where it is coming from...I'm getting out as soon as we slow to 20kph or less. I am not waiting for some FA to tell me when, seeing how his/her last job was at the GAP...I'm making my own call.

You kind of remind me of those folks that Louis CK talks about who complain when they hear of weather delays. "oh come on, the pilot doesn't know what he's doing! I can see out my little window and it's FINE!!"

Go ahead, evacuate on your own and face the consequences on your own. The airline will NOT cover you in case of any injuries, civil court will NOT side with you when you tell them you evacuated without a command and are now suing them for "negligence" or w.e., and the criminal court will NOT side with you if the airline decides to press charges for not obeying crew instructions. "This a lightouse...the choice is yours!"

[Bede]

Remember a lot of pax get a lot more worked up than pilots. "Severe" turbulence is usually light turbulence. "Heavy" smoke may be little more than a bit of type 1 going through the bleeds.

Pax initiated evacuations should never be conducted unless you have an Air France like scenario. Imagine for a moment you have an engine torching (tailpipe fire) and someone decides to blow a slide because they're convinced the plane is on fire and all pandemonium breaks out. People get broken ankles, trampled, etc. Evacuations aren't for anything but the most dire of circumstances. Evacuations usually result in injuries.

[GRK]

JIB,

Just a small point…yes we may all be, from time to time, a little complacent at work. The battle has been ongoing for years to combat that very thing. Is it not almost always true that in situations like these, (JB) our training is said to take over? There are dozens of interviews out there alluding to actions that crews took in an emergency that went like this: "I didn't have time to think, my training took over" Etc etc etc. That works only if the training has been properly handled, assessed properly and backed up by good support and a test of the knowledge gained by the trainee. Sadly in more cases these days, that proper level of training is missing, crews have a sense of entitlement to an authority that they may not have and it's all been shifting that way for some time. Yes, there are always a few who will question Command Authority, and the gradient of seniority. I saw it at a large airline that got big pretty fast back in the 90's…Pursers denigrated junior pilots including Captains about wages and authority because they had been there longer. The company actually endorsed that attitude and it came directly from the Cabin Services Manager and her training team. It was actually a form of bullying. It happened a few times where I now work, and the dismissals came fast! It was a "Standards Shift" of a large proportion. It's evident that we may be watching that at JB…I have had a lengthy conversation with one of their senior guys and he laments at length about the the shift of standards which allows such decisions to be made. Like it was said above, there's gonna be a lot of hard questions asked. BTW, no one goes to work thinking: "How bad can i screw it up today? Let's make this the day that I die or kill others…" I'm pretty sure that the KLM guy, or the AF 447 crew, or the Asiana boys, or any others thought that way.
Fly Safe,
GRK

[looproll]

Love all the selfies...

going to die, let me take a selfie! http://youtu.be/kdemFfbS5H0

[Jack In The Box]

JIB,

Just a small point…yes we may all be, from time to time, a little complacent at work. The battle has been ongoing for years to combat that very thing. Is it not almost always true that in situations like these, (JB) our training is said to take over? There are dozens of interviews out there alluding to actions that crews took in an emergency that went like this: "I didn't have time to think, my training took over" Etc etc etc. That works only if the training has been properly handled, assessed properly and backed up by good support and a test of the knowledge gained by the trainee. Sadly in more cases these days, that proper level of training is missing, crews have a sense of entitlement to an authority that they may not have and it's all been shifting that way for some time. Yes, there are always a few who will question Command Authority, and the gradient of seniority. I saw it at a large airline that got big pretty fast back in the 90's…Pursers denigrated junior pilots including Captains about wages and authority because they had been there longer. The company actually endorsed that attitude and it came directly from the Cabin Services Manager and her training team. It was actually a form of bullying. It happened a few times where I now work, and the dismissals came fast! It was a "Standards Shift" of a large proportion. It's evident that we may be watching that at JB…I have had a lengthy conversation with one of their senior guys and he laments at length about the the shift of standards which allows such decisions to be made. Like it was said above, there's gonna be a lot of hard questions asked. BTW, no one goes to work thinking: "How bad can i screw it up today? Let's make this the day that I die or kill others…" I'm pretty sure that the KLM guy, or the AF 447 crew, or the Asiana boys, or any others thought that way.
Fly Safe,
GRK

GRK, all good points. Interesting to hear about the JB crew. I've heard FA's are on the hiring boards there. It DOES indeed seem CA authority is being undermined in a lot of airlines. I am not butthurt about this, because at the end of the day you ARE in charge as the Cappy.

As for the last part, I was not suggesting you go to work thinking how you can screw up. My point was to remind yourself that if you are complacent, you COULD screw up. I guarantee you that had the crew of that Comair aircraft that took off on the wrong runway and crashed in Lexington KY a few years ago thought to themselves beforehand "you know, we're both tired today so let's be extra vigilant about what we're doing," the disaster would not have happened.