Informal data on licenses and flying

[Shiny Side Up]

We agree to an extent:

Indeed, we're quibbling over the details, but I think its important to pinpoint specifically where more effort can be made.

How do they know they are really interested if they are not exposed to it other than an idea and glossy magazines...

I would say that those who are interested, are possibly interested from an early age, maybe from when they first are cognizant of an airplane flying overhead. I can't even remember how far back I knew it was something I was interested in, and You're talking to someone who grew up with black and white TV and not a lot of easy access to info besides the school library. You know, being po' and all.

Much like the Classic Car/Muscle Car/Hot Rod audience they hit...the phone book and the web.
But there they find multiple shops, locally, clubs, websites and places they can compare etc.

Aviation they get the flight schools.

In the old days I would have agreed with you, but now the access to iformation is huge if one even takes a few minutes with the google. Yes the flight schools are the main gateway, but there's lots of other info out there if you don't stop at the first one in the list. Even if you end up on a FTU website - which in most cases are notoriously awful and uninformative - you'll probably come across the phrase of "Transport Canada approved" or "Transport Canada Standards" or something similar. Which of course should lead you down the path to actually check with TC - which few shoppers do given my experience.

But besides that there's also the large groups which are aviation related: COPA, EAA, AOPA, RAA, and that's not an exaustive list which also post their own information on flying.

But even besides that there's this thing called youtube which it would be hard to imagine no one is unfamiliar with these days where some pretty simple search terms can come up with a gargantuan amount of information - not all of it correct, but lots of stuff that should open ones eyes to the grander scheme of possibility that is aviation as a whole. Only the least imaginative couldn't see something there that would be something they'd want if they have even the least inclination of aviation in their personal make up.

Or lack of knowledge and information...again compare to Classic Car/Muscle Car/Hot Rod audience.

They know they want a Rod...they have seen them, seen TV shows about them, gone to car shows and talked to owner builders...they have a ton of information before getting addicted comapred to rec aviation.

Again, I would debate on whether there's a lack of information. Anyone with access to the internets can find a lot of info, and like shows about cars - which admittedly are greater in number - there are shows about airplanes and flying - in fact way more than there used to be. Though perhaps we need a new "Top Gun" for this generation.

Activities they are familiar with...aviation isn't one of them anymore and that needs rebuilt.

I will agree that work needs to be made here, but I would debate whether its any more less familiar than anything else to the neophyte. Pick any other activity that you've never done before and are you any more familiar with it?

In my opinion...Part of the perception is the "race to the bottom with airlines", part of it is (often) poor customer service and a big piece is the complete lack of basic knowledge.

Lack of basic knowledge is right, but I wouldn't say customer service is the breaking factor, in fact in most cases with flying I've had nothing but good customer service, when compared to any of the other things I do. My god, if poor customer service detered people from doing things they like no one would ride motorcycles. I've went through five different shops in Calgary before I found one I liked to deal with. Besides, its also been my long experience that when it comes to aviation, people will stick with a place that gives them bad service, in some cases surprisingly so.

My main point in this bit though is the expectation that flying be cheap, not reasonable, cheap. Case in point, there seems to be the myth/rumor out that chartering little airplanes is cheap - cheaper than Westjet, so we regularly get calls about flights to Vegas (the favorite destination of people who want cheap airfare it seems) of course they're always shocked. Pilots don't help, isn't everyone's favorite story about how little it cost them to get their license compared to today? Of course there's little perspective on those. When I started, dual on a 172 was $85/hour, but then I was also earning the high end wage of $7/ hour and gas was 20 cents a litre to fill my K-Car.

None the less there is the constant expectation that instructors instruct as a hobby so don't need to be paid and that learning to fly runs on a volunteer type effort. Personally I've always found its a bad form for a flying club to pose as a club yet be run like a school which should be a business, since it gives people some wrong impressions out of the gate. Not that there's anything wrong with flying clubs - and there needs to be more of them, some clubs are hardly clubs and give people the wrong impression right out of the gate. Just my opinion.

[Tom H]

Shiny

I would say that those who are interested, are possibly interested from an early age, maybe from when they first are cognizant of an airplane flying overhead.

But there are far fewer of those than 20-30-40 years ago when rec aviation was growing.

Most see the International Airport. Few, in smaller communities, see a smaller active airport.

Kid in the City once in a blue moon sees a light plane well overhead and most often an airliner.

I can't even remember how far back I knew it was something I was interested in

One difference between us, I grew up in the middle of it. (never had a chance LOL)

You're talking to someone who grew up with black and white TV and not a lot of easy access to info besides the school library. You know, being po' and all.

Well that puts us in the same general age range and soci-economic zone...but leads to another point.
When did you last see an airport kid? Iremember as a kid biking to the airport, talking with pilot/owners and if you hung around and helped out, washed an airplane you might get a ride.

I haven't seen that in decades and that is part of the problem.

In the old days I would have agreed with you, but now the access to iformation is huge if one even takes a few minutes with the google. Yes the flight schools are the main gateway, but there's lots of other info out there if you don't stop at the first one in the list. Even if you end up on a FTU website - which in most cases are notoriously awful and uninformative - you'll probably come across the phrase of "Transport Canada approved" or "Transport Canada Standards" or something similar. Which of course should lead you down the path to actually check with TC - which few shoppers do given my experience.

But besides that there's also the large groups which are aviation related: COPA, EAA, AOPA, RAA, and that's not an exaustive list which also post their own information on flying.

But even besides that there's this thing called youtube which it would be hard to imagine no one is unfamiliar with these days where some pretty simple search terms can come up with a gargantuan amount of information - not all of it correct, but lots of stuff that should open ones eyes to the grander scheme of possibility that is aviation as a whole. Only the least imaginative couldn't see something there that would be something they'd want if they have even the least inclination of aviation in their personal make up.

Here we differ...access to information and ability to sort it and use it are two very different things.

Again comparing to the Collectable/Custom Car World (which are a very similar demographic) that I still hang out in.

Most get the bug by being involved one way or another...then get the itch to own, then (once they have some knowledge to use to sort the wheat from the chaff) use the web, forums, suppliers etc.

The aviation presence isn't the same at all and it needs to be to succeed.

Lack of basic knowledge is right, but I wouldn't say customer service is the breaking factor, in fact in most cases with flying I've had nothing but good customer service, when compared to any of the other things I do. My god, if poor customer service detered people from doing things they like no one would ride motorcycles. I've went through five different shops in Calgary before I found one I liked to deal with. Besides, its also been my long experience that when it comes to aviation, people will stick with a place that gives them bad service, in some cases surprisingly so.

Guess we will disagree here...but it depends a lot on your local market, some are better than others.

I know way too many people first hand that have money (far more than I ever will) that invested several thousand dollars in a PPL only to walk away because they got tired of being treated badly.

About 5 years ago one put it to me this way over a beverage...
I wear a $1,000 suit, drive a $100,000 car and I am not going to be treated like an idiot by someone 1/2 my age.
This person was a high ranking Executive, very well educated and sailed offshore...not a guy with comprehension issues.
Walked away from several thousand dollars he had already invested in ground school training and flight time.

Now drives a $100K Rod. BTW he built the engine and driveline himself.

This guy was the right customer for recreational aviation, money/cost a non issue...poor service blew him (an a number of others I know) off.

Some operators need to get there act together (as I said depending where you are some areas are better than others)
customer service training and professionalism are expected from customers willing to pay.

The real cheap skates you will never win with though.

My main point in this bit though is the expectation that flying be cheap, not reasonable, cheap. Case in point, there seems to be the myth/rumor out that chartering little airplanes is cheap - cheaper than Westjet, so we regularly get calls about flights to Vegas (the favorite destination of people who want cheap airfare it seems) of course they're always shocked. Pilots don't help, isn't everyone's favorite story about how little it cost them to get their license compared to today? Of course there's little perspective on those. When I started, dual on a 172 was $85/hour, but then I was also earning the high end wage of $7/ hour and gas was 20 cents a litre to fill my K-Car.

None the less there is the constant expectation that instructors instruct as a hobby so don't need to be paid and that learning to fly runs on a volunteer type effort. Personally I've always found its a bad form for a flying club to pose as a club yet be run like a school which should be a business, since it gives people some wrong impressions out of the gate. Not that there's anything wrong with flying clubs - and there needs to be more of them, some clubs are hardly clubs and give people the wrong impression right out of the gate. Just my opinion.

I really appreciate your point and agree to an extent...but again we need to look at other not-cheap pass times.

Value is perceived...place looks ratty, poor service and a lack of professionalism and people don't generally want to pay big bucks.

Place clean, neat, looks good and cared for...solid service and professional and people expect to pay.

But again the real utter cheap skates are gonna still be there...regardless aviation, automotive, sailing done all of them and seen both sides.

In my highly biased personal opinion

[Shiny Side Up]

I know way too many people first hand that have money (far more than I ever will) that invested several thousand dollars in a PPL only to walk away because they got tired of being treated badly.

About 5 years ago one put it to me this way over a beverage...
I wear a $1,000 suit, drive a $100,000 car and I am not going to be treated like an idiot by someone 1/2 my age.
This person was a high ranking Executive, very well educated and sailed offshore...not a guy with comprehension issues.
Walked away from several thousand dollars he had already invested in ground school training and flight time.

Now drives a $100K Rod. BTW he built the engine and driveline himself.

This guy was the right customer for recreational aviation, money/cost a non issue...poor service blew him (an a number of others I know) off.

I hate to tell you this, but while that probably sounded like a good story from him, it illustrates my point. First, and obviously, not all instructors are "half his age", so he probably didn't shop around much. Second, while cost/money isn't an issue, time often is, so these guys get frustrated with the process easily, especially since money can't plow you through it. No offense, but no wealthy guy who's reasonable to deal with starts off any conversation with "I wear a $1000 suit". Just saying.

[Tom H]

Shiny

First, and obviously, not all instructors are "half his age", so he probably didn't shop around much.

Depends where you are and he is no spring chicken...our black and white TV era.

And yes on my recommendation he went to each of the schools in the zone, checked them out and paid for discovery flights with each.

Second, while cost/money isn't an issue, time often is, so these guys get frustrated with the process easily, especially since money can't plow you through it.

Disagree...anyone that can make the time and spend the cash to do full large boat sailing courses and offshore/heavy weather sailing courses is not someone that gets frustrated easy or expects to use money to push through.

Same goes for building a blown chevy on your own as well as the balance of the driveline...sure takes money but also takes time and effort when you don't sub it all out.

No offense, but no wealthy guy who's reasonable to deal with starts off any conversation with "I wear a $1000 suit". Just saying.

Well considering he is a good friend making a point over beverages and someone I dealt with extensively in the automotive biz...we are going to disagree....on both counts.

And this gentlemen is not the first nor the last to hit me with the issue there have been a series over the last 15 years and not specific to one school...it has been with several.

Tom H

[Tom H]

More importantly and back to the point of the discussion...

There is a significant market out there that will and does pay well for services they perceive value in.

My experience is:
- They don't expect to be cowtowed to
- They don't expect fancy

They do expect:
- Clean, neat and organized
- To be treated well
- They expect professionalism
- They expect good value (not cheap there is a difference)

When they get it they have no issue spending the cash.

When they don't get it...you lose them and they do not come back.

In any market sector.

An additional note:

There are some really good professional instructors out there...ton of time and respect for them.
But there are too many unprofessional, putting in time to build hours to get to the right seat of a turboprop

Which is sad, when I got my license in the "dark ages" it was the reverse

Most instructors were professional instructors and very good. (both part time and full time)
There were not many in the "other"category and they didn't stay around long. (both part time and full time)

That's what I see and that's been my experiences...as well as those of friends.

In my highly biased personal opinion

Tom H

[Shiny Side Up]

I guess I can say that your experience and mine have been substantially different.

I would only argue that the market that you're referring to can't be tapped. Ultimately in spite of all their other qualities, flying and aviation just doesn't pull on them that much. After all, there are people of much lesser means that climb over the same hurdles, and I would wager that time in the case of these guys is the most important factor, since they have all sorts of other things they'd rather do, and aviation loses on the toss.

That's even the case with some of the guys who are into aviation, I can think of a lot of gorgeous airplanes that spend a lot of time in the hangar.

Again, some bad customer service ain't going to deter people from something they're really interested in. That's been my long experience, since I deal with a lot of those cases. I'm no longer surprised by what people will put up with.

And for the record, for as long as I can recall, there's been about fifty-fifty with the good and bad instructors. I suspect its always been that way. Though I do have to say when I started I thought it was like you did, but I've had the chance to encounter some of the people I previously had some respect for later on, and lets say being older and wiser, any illusions one has had are quickly shattered.

[Tom H]

Shiny

I guess I can say that your experience and mine have been substantially different.

Seems so and could be because my experinece is spread across multiple market places.

I would only argue that the market that you're referring to can't be tapped. Ultimately in spite of all their other qualities, flying and aviation just doesn't pull on them that much.

Get your point but disagree...the market is being tapped in other market places and the pull is marketing...that generates the interest, the romance, the adventure and the desire.

Growing or regrowing (depending on your point of view) the recreational aviation market is not going to be easy and will take a ton of work from ALL those involved in it....but what is the alternative?

Wait for it to slowly die?

Tom H

[Shiny Side Up]

Seems so and could be because my experinece is spread across multiple market places.

I wouldn't make the assumption that mine's not. In particular I like to visit flight schools, and have sampled the wares across this country and even south of the border. That's both as customer and provider.

Growing or regrowing (depending on your point of view) the recreational aviation market is not going to be easy and will take a ton of work from ALL those involved in it....but what is the alternative?

Wait for it to slowly die?

No, but I believe it needs to be more targetted rather than casting a large net. What we need to do is when people are identified who are going to further the cause, that effort then is expended to bring them into the fold, rather than spend a ton of effort trying to convince people on the fence, or on the other side of it that they need to come over. Don't waste time on dabblers and tire kickers. I would wager that your friend ultimately only had a passing interest in flying - but had the luxury to spend money to taste test it, and supreme and continued effort would need to be expended to keep him "into " it. Run into lots of these guys who've got to various depths of aviation, then just dropped it.

For someone like myself, that's hard to imagine. I can't imagine not being involved in flying once I got the first taste.

[Tom H]

Seems so and could be because my experinece is spread across multiple market places.

I wouldn't make the assumption that mine's not. In particular I like to visit flight schools, and have sampled the wares across this country and even south of the border. That's both as customer and provider.

I was referring to other gendre' beyond aviation never assumed you were not very well versed both in your field and geography beyond your location.

Growing or regrowing (depending on your point of view) the recreational aviation market is not going to be easy and will take a ton of work from ALL those involved in it....but what is the alternative?

Wait for it to slowly die?

No, but I believe it needs to be more targetted rather than casting a large net. What we need to do is when people are identified who are going to further the cause, that effort then is expended to bring them into the fold, rather than spend a ton of effort trying to convince people on the fence, or on the other side of it that they need to come over. Don't waste time on dabblers and tire kickers. I would wager that your friend ultimately only had a passing interest in flying - but had the luxury to spend money to taste test it, and supreme and continued effort would need to be expended to keep him "into " it. Run into lots of these guys who've got to various depths of aviation, then just dropped it.

I think the approach is where we differ...
Marketing (not just conventional commercial styles) needs to be targeted to a demographic that gets to the right audience(s). When done well (lots of examples) it is very effective. But it needs to be proactive.

The approach you describe above is "passive' to me, while it works it is a long term philosophy that should be what is the norm in our sport/pass time.

For someone like myself, that's hard to imagine. I can't imagine not being involved in flying once I got the first taste.

Don't argue but...

Twice I have walked away from things I was very passionate, invested and involved in and both times it was attitudes/poor service that did it.

Like a large portion of the population...if I get treated like crap and don't have an option(s) I will do something else that I enjoy. I get the other side all too much I'm afraid.

Tom H

[Big Pistons Forever]

Don't waste time on dabblers and tire kickers. I would wager that your friend ultimately only had a passing interest in flying - but had the luxury to spend money to taste test it, and supreme and continued effort would need to be expended to keep him "into " it. Run into lots of these guys who've got to various depths of aviation, then just dropped it.

For someone like myself, that's hard to imagine. I can't imagine not being involved in flying once I got the first taste.

Like you I have been hooked on flying for literally as long as I can Remember. I had a subscription to flying magazine when I was 9.

The flying club I belong to is currently agonizing over the retention of new PPL's, but I am starting to think that there is a subset of the training market who just want the tick in the box. They want to be able to say "I am a pilot" and once they get the license they have achieved the aim and move on to the next challenge. This cohort seems to be exclusively populated by 45 - 60 year old men. Trying to retain these guys is an exercise in futility.

[Tom H]

Shiny

Didn't want to clutter the meat of my response with covering this.

I used my friend as an example of the problem but it would have been a bad wager...

I would wager that your friend ultimately only had a passing interest in flying - but had the luxury to spend money to taste test it, and supreme and continued effort would need to be expended to keep him "into " it. Run into lots of these guys who've got to various depths of aviation, then just dropped it.

He is now retired (yes I am envious) winters in California, has his licence as well as a V Tail Bonanza and beautiful Teenie Two, got his license in California.

When he is here he tours with his Custom Hot Rod and visits his kids. Still doesn't fly here.

Tom H

[Shiny Side Up]

I think the approach is where we differ...
Marketing (not just conventional commercial styles) needs to be targeted to a demographic that gets to the right audience(s). When done well (lots of examples) it is very effective. But it needs to be proactive.

The approach you describe above is "passive' to me, while it works it is a long term philosophy that should be what is the norm in our sport/pass time.

Actually what you say there is exactly what I'm after, so our opinion there when it comes to marketing probably doesn't differ that much. I am thinking though that since there is obviously a limited amount of effort that we can ask people to expend in this regard, we have to make the most of it.

The flying club I belong to is currently agonizing over the retention of new PPL's, but I am starting to think that there is a subset of the training market who just want the tick in the box. They want to be able to say "I am a pilot" and once they get the license they have achieved the aim and move on to the next challenge. This cohort seems to be exclusively populated by 45 - 60 year old men. Trying to retain these guys is an exercise in futility.

I'll admit these guys drive me nuts, the "professional student" type of people, whom we process a fair amount of. You're right, effort is wasted trying to retain these people - what they're passionate about is being a student - not flying. As an aside, though somewhat a boon for a flight school, they drive me crazy as an instructor since they often aren't focused on any goal, but rather the process, and often in a hobbyist mindset. My CDO (its like OCD but with the letters in the correct order!) means that incomplete projects like these are somewhat antagonizing.

Still doesn't fly here.

Not sure what to say, but your friend may be an outlier on the curve then and something else may be the ultimate reason beyond his apparent dislike of flying in Canada. Why would some bad instructors prevent him from flying here? That's just odd. Either way, I don't think he's illustrative of whom needs to be targeted in terms of GA marketing in this country. Reminds me of someone else who used to post here, just despised aviation in Canada in spite of all the good stuff it seemed to bring him. Flying was always better somewhere else, I don't think it was possible to bring him around.