Bad Prang.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 3:35 pm

I read in an American aviation mag that a possible contributing factor in that horrible crash between a Cessna Citation 11 and a MD-87 @ Milan-Linate airport in Oct. 2001 when the Citation taxiied onto the runway, was struck by the MD-87, which then struck airport buildings, killing 114 people was the fact that the crew of the Citation were talking to ATC in Italian and ATC was replying in English. Also a factor was poor runway and taxi way markings. How many pilots have found problems with taxiway markings at Canadian airports? I have found that taxi way centerline markings and runway markings do not last the projected two years they are supposed to. Any comments.

Bcn-In-Bnd · Post by **Bcn-In-Bnd** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:12 pm

Is that how long they think painted markings last.
I would have given them about 6 months.
I know in YWG they did a lot painting last year and at night you would never know it. YOW is the same.

Northern Flyer · Post by **Northern Flyer** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:18 pm

The markings don't last long were I am, but the gravel runways are usually covered in snow anyhow.

Bcn-In-Bnd · Post by **Bcn-In-Bnd** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:29 pm

lol

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:22 pm

if you can read a map you sure as heck better know how to read the cap or the cfs..

Even if it isn't marked you have two books that show you, and your brain should be like "hey this is runway XX, maybe I shouldn't go onto it"..

IF you can't read a cfs, or don't know what you're doing, ASK.. You'll get a marshaller to come out and show/direct you, if you're in a pickle.. You can talk to ground too.. Lol.. =( I can tell you stories about me and ground.. Lots of items to assist you...

Bcn-In-Bnd wrote:YOW is the same.

LoL... Yeah, that's where we were chatting it up with ground.

I think the main factor was that ATC was talking to them in English and they were chatting in another language.. "A/C stop.. Stop.." "que?"

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 8:20 pm

I used to work (as a pilot) for a roadbuilder and one of our jobs was to paint the lines on highways. Airports are the same. Usually repainted every two years. May not sound like much of a problem but at night and in inclemint weather, those runway markings and taxiway centerlines are very important. Cost is what determines when the lines get repainted.
I was wondering if the French/English thing is much of a problem. I did some flight training out of YUL a few years ago and the pilots were bilingual and it was amazing to me how they could talk amoung themselves in both languages. Ask a question in French and get an answer in English. Even with ATC, the languaage of choice seemed to be a whim because everyone was bilingual.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 8:56 pm

oldtimer wrote:paint the lines on highways. Airports are the same. Usually repainted every two years. May not sound like much of a problem but at night and in inclemint weather, those runway markings and taxiway centerlines are very important.

Our highway gets stripped by the plows every year.. Meadowvale(sp) - the next off ramp has no lines.. People seem to manage just fine without the lines...

In the winter the plows don't come out till the road has been covered at times.. We drivers manage to not kill ourselves.. because of these "lines"

Airspace/airways are invisible lines you don't have crashes everyday up there???

I don't think poor markings can be blamed.. As i said, in the worst case scenario, A. don't go, tell your company, I can't see sh9t I'm not going, or B. tell a marshaller to direct you. They'll do that for you gladly(yes for a fee)?

http://www.panamair.org/Accidents/sectenerife.htm

After reading the above.. I'll allow blaming of the markers.. But I don't think it's a good excuse.. Shouldn't be allowed to be blamed totally..

"As a result of the poor visibility, the crew had difficulty in localizing the exits from the runway whose position they were following on the little map that they had with them. Nevertheless, at 1704:26.4 the captain identified C-l (which is the 90 degree exit). At 1705:22.0, they also identified C-2. Then, perhaps through error, or thinking that C-4 was an easier exit than C-3, they overshot the exit ordered by the Tower. "

But also language does play a part in it. Great if the people there at YUL were bilingual if you weren't you didn't know what they were saying 1/2 the time since as you mentioned they were speaking french..

"3.2 Use of standard, concise and unequivocal aeronautical language. "

I think language/communication plays a big role.

And again, if you're scared at a big/new airport talk to ground, they'll gladly walk you through your taxi, "turn left, go straight... turn left again" they'll gladly do that for you, just to avoid an accident.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:16 pm

I have to disagree. Poor runway markings have proven many times to be a factor in runway incursion accidents. Maybe you don't prowl around strange airports at night but with the poor lighting that is inherent in some airplanes, combined with fatigue, in a strange environment, and inclemint weather, runway incursions do happen and people get killed. All to save a bit of money for paint. Highways, everone heads for the center of the road. You really notice it if you are in a big truck because you sit up higher. People drive off the highway and kill themselves every winter in every province. Just like poor training or poor maintenance, we all just get used to it and live(or die) with it.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 10:19 pm

Oh I agree that they play a part in it.

But when I was trained we were taught not to go above a certain speed, slow down before crossing the intersection/runway, and look to see if traffic is comming, even though you've been cleared(ground and tower may screw up).

Yes it's a factor, poor lighting, being tired and not knowing where you're going.. But if thats the case, people should be executing more caution.

I remember, and I still do at times, roll my eyes every time they blame the pilot and think it's comical how they can usually manage to blame the pilot for every accident.

But when you get down to it, you can tell TC, "sorry about the incursion, but the markings were poor" they'll just laugh at you. I can't blame them(for once) as PIC by defintion it's your responsibility to know everything(which is difficult), you have many items at your disposal,
Markings, CFS, ground, marshals, your co-pilot and finally, yourself.. If you're not confortable with something don't do it.

Yes, this is all "talk," but like I've said, I've look like an a** at ottawa because we were going in circles once. I've stopped at thresholds even though I was cleared and ground just said "you've been cleared".. I'd rather look like a dumb arse to ground then be dead.

If I'm lucky enough to make it to the big league and encounter a problem, I won't hesitate to ask for directions or ask for the clearance again just to be safe.

But as Northern Flyer mentioned, I should be thankful I even have markings faded or poorly lit, they still beat his.

Bcn-In-Bnd · Post by **Bcn-In-Bnd** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 6:43 am

Well......I GUESS I know where to come when I cant figure something out.
Ill just come and have a chat with cyyz.