Next to big airplane fair pay seems to be a common subject among pilots.
How exactly does one determine what fair pay is?
Fair pay.
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Cat Driver
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Fair pay.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Fair pay.
How can you determine how CEOs can earn millions of dollars with bonuses based on short term results, anyone ever heard of fair pay?
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Meatservo
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Re: Fair pay.
In truth it's hard to come up with absolutes. When I started flying for a living it was twenty years ago, and I had 200 hours and a job as a dockhand/camp-check pilot. I got paid $1800 per month, but they included a house to live in with other pilots. It was a blast, and since I was in my early twenties and didn't have a care in the world I thought it was pretty good. Each biweekly paycheque was something like $600 after taxes and that paid for a hell of a lot of beer. The airline ran year-round and when my 180 went on skis and there were lots of pretty teachers and nurses to chase around and other pilots to live and drink beer with, I thought I was doing all right. When, after ski season they offered me the Beaver and bumped me up to $3000/month I though I was really getting places. I figured it was time to get an apartment and shack up, resulting in my having way LESS beer money. But I was dumb. Anyway, I was soon to get checked out on the Otter, which was 4000 dollars a month!! Does the Queen even have that much money???
It's almost like this particular employer knew how much money a young feller needed to chase tail and drink beer, and gave him a place to flop, which is all you need when you're twenty-three. I look back on it now that I make five times that amount, and I never had it so good. Of course a parochial existence in a little Ontario town at the end of the road isn't what most people are looking for.
The thing is, I understand from my younger friends that this is still the going rate for this kind of work. So that's NOT QUITE as fair. The price of beer has doubled. The price of rent has doubled. There are very few year-round jobs for young float/ski pilots. The teachers I used to chase around made about the same as I did; nowadays they make about four times as much- how are you even supposed to impress girls? That is not fair. By way of comparison, when I was a wee slip of a lad, Twin Otter captains were seen as the ultimate achievers in the "bush" world, and the whispered tales of their $80 000/year paycheques kept us awake at night drooling and plotting how to score a checkout on one of THOSE. Nowadays, twenty years later, if you're lucky you MIGHT make that much flying a twin, but a lot of skippers are putting up with less too. That is also not fair.
I guess I have no idea what "fair" is. I lead a comfortable middle-class existence. There are guys, I suspect a LOT of guys who make more money per year than I do. I don't feel abused, and I like my job. Most people who make more money than I do flying don't seem to work as hard or put in the hours I do: they just fly a bigger plane. Most adults I know who are not pilots make about the same as I do, I guess that's why it feels fair. My wife is a middle-manager in a provincial government and our T4s are about equal. I like my job way more than she does. That seems fair.
The only time I have ever felt hard-done-by has been when I have found out that other guys are getting way more money than me for similar work.
I guess there's that meme circulating where Louis C.K. tells his daughter "the only time you should look in someone else's bowl is to see if they have enough". I'd like to live like that. Managers make more than I do, and so do executives and so do pilots who are members of unions and fly bigger planes. I have to remind myself that I don't want their jobs, so I don't get their pay either. Sometimes I am guilty of thinking that I am better than they would be at the job that I do, but here's the thing, they don't do my job either, and there are some good things about that too.
I guess for a young guy being able to afford a decent place to live and have a couple of hundred bucks a month for saving and a bit left over for beer after modest expenses shouldn't be too much to ask. It takes a while to get decent at being a pilot and there should be some incentive. I don't think the current rate of pay for new graduates allows this, and I don't think that's fair.
It's almost like this particular employer knew how much money a young feller needed to chase tail and drink beer, and gave him a place to flop, which is all you need when you're twenty-three. I look back on it now that I make five times that amount, and I never had it so good. Of course a parochial existence in a little Ontario town at the end of the road isn't what most people are looking for.
The thing is, I understand from my younger friends that this is still the going rate for this kind of work. So that's NOT QUITE as fair. The price of beer has doubled. The price of rent has doubled. There are very few year-round jobs for young float/ski pilots. The teachers I used to chase around made about the same as I did; nowadays they make about four times as much- how are you even supposed to impress girls? That is not fair. By way of comparison, when I was a wee slip of a lad, Twin Otter captains were seen as the ultimate achievers in the "bush" world, and the whispered tales of their $80 000/year paycheques kept us awake at night drooling and plotting how to score a checkout on one of THOSE. Nowadays, twenty years later, if you're lucky you MIGHT make that much flying a twin, but a lot of skippers are putting up with less too. That is also not fair.
I guess I have no idea what "fair" is. I lead a comfortable middle-class existence. There are guys, I suspect a LOT of guys who make more money per year than I do. I don't feel abused, and I like my job. Most people who make more money than I do flying don't seem to work as hard or put in the hours I do: they just fly a bigger plane. Most adults I know who are not pilots make about the same as I do, I guess that's why it feels fair. My wife is a middle-manager in a provincial government and our T4s are about equal. I like my job way more than she does. That seems fair.
The only time I have ever felt hard-done-by has been when I have found out that other guys are getting way more money than me for similar work.
I guess there's that meme circulating where Louis C.K. tells his daughter "the only time you should look in someone else's bowl is to see if they have enough". I'd like to live like that. Managers make more than I do, and so do executives and so do pilots who are members of unions and fly bigger planes. I have to remind myself that I don't want their jobs, so I don't get their pay either. Sometimes I am guilty of thinking that I am better than they would be at the job that I do, but here's the thing, they don't do my job either, and there are some good things about that too.
I guess for a young guy being able to afford a decent place to live and have a couple of hundred bucks a month for saving and a bit left over for beer after modest expenses shouldn't be too much to ask. It takes a while to get decent at being a pilot and there should be some incentive. I don't think the current rate of pay for new graduates allows this, and I don't think that's fair.
If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself
Re: Fair pay.
Many pilots wages did not follow the cost of life and have not moved up the famous 2% since 10 years.
Before that there were the years of concessions, were pilots lost and regained very little.
Make it 15 years we are way behind what it should be.
That is the fair pay I guess.
Yes some FOs cannot afford beers anymore, especially the ones with families.
What a sad life style.
Before that there were the years of concessions, were pilots lost and regained very little.
Make it 15 years we are way behind what it should be.
That is the fair pay I guess.
Yes some FOs cannot afford beers anymore, especially the ones with families.
What a sad life style.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Fair pay.
When I posed this question it was because I see the industry going down hill in the past twenty or so years.
Like Meatservo I do not recall being under payed when I worked as a pilot.
So why is it getting worse now?
Like Meatservo I do not recall being under payed when I worked as a pilot.
So why is it getting worse now?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Liquid Charlie
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Re: Fair pay.
Cat -- I'm with you and Meats -- I always figured I was paid fairly for my expertise - maybe when I first started at $300/month but that only lasted for a month and I was on formula pay 
-- I can say that I have witnessed what guys are getting paid now by various operators and it really sucks -- and unfortunately westjet and air canada (connectors) except for Jazz are leading the charge -- I firmly believe Jazz will be sacrificed at first opportunity since it will be hard to compete against cheap labour when the bids come due -- maybe canada should follow the US and increase crew licensing requirements - creates crew shortages and increases our value --
-- I can say that I have witnessed what guys are getting paid now by various operators and it really sucks -- and unfortunately westjet and air canada (connectors) except for Jazz are leading the charge -- I firmly believe Jazz will be sacrificed at first opportunity since it will be hard to compete against cheap labour when the bids come due -- maybe canada should follow the US and increase crew licensing requirements - creates crew shortages and increases our value --Black Air has no Lift - Extra Fuel has no Weight
ACTPA
ACTPA
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Cat Driver
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Re: Fair pay.
You forgot the three cents a mile.maybe when I first started at $300/month but that only lasted for a month and I was on formula pay
That was what Austins paid us in the late sixties on the DC3 as co-pilots......hell I thought I had died and went to heaven.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Old fella
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Re: Fair pay.
To quote some famous British politician "Events, my dear boy, events"
Re: Fair pay.
Twenty years!I see the industry going down hill in the past twenty or so years
Must be a big hill...
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Shiny Side Up
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Re: Fair pay.
I hate to tell people this but it's not just aviation where wages haven't increased proportional to the cost of living.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
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Tail-Chaser
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Re: Fair pay.
It seems as if anyone not making $1 million a year already has seen their income stagnate.
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Jet Jockey
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Well...
I guess it all depends on your employer.
Most of them know you're in aviation because you love it! This opens the door to poor salaries. Also pilots are their own worst enemies because to fly they are willing to work for peanuts.
In the end, hard work, perseverance and some luck might get you into a well paying and satisfying flying position.
I started for a well known charter outfit in the Montreal area called Provincial Aviation back in 1979 as a co-captain making $12K a year flying Cessna 400 series.
Then by the mid-80s I was flying for a company that owned their own Aerostar for $25-30K a year but I also had office duties.
Then in 1987 I went and flew for City Express on the Dash 7, did 1200 hours in one year and got all but $18K. I was about to get upgraded to captain in 1988 ($36K a year) when I was offered to go fly for Air Alliance (Air Canada's start up feeder) on the Dash 8 out of Quebec City for $22K a year as a co-pilot. I took it because I thought in the long run it was a better career move.
However in 1989 I got hired by then Quebecair/Inter-Canadien to go fly the Fokker 28 for 3 years out of Paris which I jumped on right away. The base starting salary as a co-pilot was $29K a year but what was interesting was the “tax-free” living allowance which was close to $3000 a month. On top of that we got a fully insured, plated and maintenance free car from the company that we worked with. Basically I had to pay only for its gas and my apartment rent (about $600 a month). Believe or not the income bracket I was in while in France (under French laws) was lower than the Canadian one so after one year I was making about $55K clear or net a year plus the free car! That was one heck of a jump in salary! Back then in Canada one would have to make over $100K a year to have that kind of net salary.
Then those who know the history of that company know they went under when they tore up their deal with Canadian Airlines and decide to go on their own.... It took but 18 months for it to go out of business. However that did not affect the Paris operation so it continued.
Before my contract with Quebecair came to an end, I was lucky enough to get hired for the people I work for now (24 years). At the beginning it was a big drop in salary ($36K a year) but things went uphill steadily to a point where today I make more than most airline pilots while flying 200 to 300 hours a year on some of the best equipment available at destinations all over the globe.
Although aviation is a cyclic field when it comes to hiring, if you like flying, stick with it and have some luck on your side you can make a decent living from it.
Most of them know you're in aviation because you love it! This opens the door to poor salaries. Also pilots are their own worst enemies because to fly they are willing to work for peanuts.
In the end, hard work, perseverance and some luck might get you into a well paying and satisfying flying position.
I started for a well known charter outfit in the Montreal area called Provincial Aviation back in 1979 as a co-captain making $12K a year flying Cessna 400 series.
Then by the mid-80s I was flying for a company that owned their own Aerostar for $25-30K a year but I also had office duties.
Then in 1987 I went and flew for City Express on the Dash 7, did 1200 hours in one year and got all but $18K. I was about to get upgraded to captain in 1988 ($36K a year) when I was offered to go fly for Air Alliance (Air Canada's start up feeder) on the Dash 8 out of Quebec City for $22K a year as a co-pilot. I took it because I thought in the long run it was a better career move.
However in 1989 I got hired by then Quebecair/Inter-Canadien to go fly the Fokker 28 for 3 years out of Paris which I jumped on right away. The base starting salary as a co-pilot was $29K a year but what was interesting was the “tax-free” living allowance which was close to $3000 a month. On top of that we got a fully insured, plated and maintenance free car from the company that we worked with. Basically I had to pay only for its gas and my apartment rent (about $600 a month). Believe or not the income bracket I was in while in France (under French laws) was lower than the Canadian one so after one year I was making about $55K clear or net a year plus the free car! That was one heck of a jump in salary! Back then in Canada one would have to make over $100K a year to have that kind of net salary.
Then those who know the history of that company know they went under when they tore up their deal with Canadian Airlines and decide to go on their own.... It took but 18 months for it to go out of business. However that did not affect the Paris operation so it continued.
Before my contract with Quebecair came to an end, I was lucky enough to get hired for the people I work for now (24 years). At the beginning it was a big drop in salary ($36K a year) but things went uphill steadily to a point where today I make more than most airline pilots while flying 200 to 300 hours a year on some of the best equipment available at destinations all over the globe.
Although aviation is a cyclic field when it comes to hiring, if you like flying, stick with it and have some luck on your side you can make a decent living from it.
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Liquid Charlie
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Re: Fair pay.
nope it was a straight $300/month with Barney and jumped to $500/5 when I got my 180 check -- kept me in rum and womenYou forgot the three cents a mile.
with enough left over to buy antibiotics -- lmfoaaaaaaaaaaaBlack Air has no Lift - Extra Fuel has no Weight
ACTPA
ACTPA
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Fair pay.
I guess $500/5 would keep you in rum and women......at the Snake Pit!!Liquid Charlie wrote:nope it was a straight $300/month with Barney and jumped to $500/5 when I got my 180 check -- kept me in rum and womenYou forgot the three cents a mile.
Illya
Wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then.
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flyinthebug
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Re: Fair pay.
My 1st commercial job on a C206 on floats...$0.26 cents per SM. No base.
Then onto a C414 FO and making 1500$ a month (medevac)...then PA31-350 Capt 35K a year, then King Air up to 60K and into management (CP, DFO 703/704).
20 + years later, I`m now exclusively in aviation management (not by choice, but lost that all important Cat 1 medical) for a large 703/4/5 operator and making just under 6 figures.
My progression has been "fair" in my opinion. I paved my own roads and cut trails where there were no roads.
Our industry is like any other out there...hard work, determination, loyalty & commitment will lead to bigger pay cheques, (and ultimately for pilots, bigger planes should they so desire them).
It is up to each one of us to ensure we are paid fairly for the job we are doing. Those that buy PPCs and work for free are the ones hurting our industry, but despite those people, its still doable to be paid fairly as a pilot if you work hard towards your goals.
Fly safe all.
Then onto a C414 FO and making 1500$ a month (medevac)...then PA31-350 Capt 35K a year, then King Air up to 60K and into management (CP, DFO 703/704).
20 + years later, I`m now exclusively in aviation management (not by choice, but lost that all important Cat 1 medical) for a large 703/4/5 operator and making just under 6 figures.
My progression has been "fair" in my opinion. I paved my own roads and cut trails where there were no roads.
Our industry is like any other out there...hard work, determination, loyalty & commitment will lead to bigger pay cheques, (and ultimately for pilots, bigger planes should they so desire them).
It is up to each one of us to ensure we are paid fairly for the job we are doing. Those that buy PPCs and work for free are the ones hurting our industry, but despite those people, its still doable to be paid fairly as a pilot if you work hard towards your goals.
Fly safe all.
Re: Fair pay.
Our industry is like any other out there...hard work, determination, loyalty & commitment will lead to bigger pay cheques,
+1It is up to each one of us to ensure we are paid fairly for the job we are doing
I believe it's also up to each one to decide for themselves what is fair and what is not.
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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Fair pay.
Simple formula I guess.
Passengers want to pay less
Companies lower fares to accommodate, leaving less residual return with:
Aircraft pricing staying the same (used) or having gone up significantly (new)
Insurance premiums having increased (due to insane accident payouts and legal fees)
Fuel prices skyrocketing in the last 2 decades
Average daily operating costs of aircraft increasing 10 fold with AD's, inspections, technology, and subscriptions.
Not to mention a whole host of alternative costs (hangar and land development fees etc) that have increased
What's left to cut? Pilot wages...because we all got into this to work for free didn't we?
It sucks, it absolutely sucks, but at the end of the day the cut throat nature of this business causes both pilots and operators to duel it out for the thing that makes this industry turn, money.
We lose 'cause those prideful enough to turn down or not apply for a certain job, leave it open for those who lack enough self respect to say - you know what, let's not work for poverty wages and shitty (often dangerous) working conditions and then sign up or literally pay for my operators costs (training). The proverbial carrot at the end of the heavy metal stick.
Solutions? I don't have one other than being modestly prideful and only considering opportunities that will continue to help those behind me while also bettering my current slice of life. Not an easy thing to do. Sometimes I stumble.
S.
Passengers want to pay less
Companies lower fares to accommodate, leaving less residual return with:
Aircraft pricing staying the same (used) or having gone up significantly (new)
Insurance premiums having increased (due to insane accident payouts and legal fees)
Fuel prices skyrocketing in the last 2 decades
Average daily operating costs of aircraft increasing 10 fold with AD's, inspections, technology, and subscriptions.
Not to mention a whole host of alternative costs (hangar and land development fees etc) that have increased
What's left to cut? Pilot wages...because we all got into this to work for free didn't we?
It sucks, it absolutely sucks, but at the end of the day the cut throat nature of this business causes both pilots and operators to duel it out for the thing that makes this industry turn, money.
We lose 'cause those prideful enough to turn down or not apply for a certain job, leave it open for those who lack enough self respect to say - you know what, let's not work for poverty wages and shitty (often dangerous) working conditions and then sign up or literally pay for my operators costs (training). The proverbial carrot at the end of the heavy metal stick.
Solutions? I don't have one other than being modestly prideful and only considering opportunities that will continue to help those behind me while also bettering my current slice of life. Not an easy thing to do. Sometimes I stumble.
S.
Re: Fair pay.
In the bush I blame the poor wages partly on the turbines. A PZL piston otter that I used to fly sold for $800,000 on floats. Then the new owner spent a huge bundle to put in a turbine. That money could have been used to give the pilot a pay increase 
Cost of maintenance on the piston engines in a lot of cases is still cheap because a lot of operations had a full time mechanic on staff, so the PZLs were fairly cheap to maintain, and you could buy one new in a box for $80,000 (so I've heard)
I made good money in the bush when I first started because it was year-round. The ski jobs are drying up though. I can still make decent money flying floats but for now I have opted for a steady year-round job in the oil patch.
Cost of maintenance on the piston engines in a lot of cases is still cheap because a lot of operations had a full time mechanic on staff, so the PZLs were fairly cheap to maintain, and you could buy one new in a box for $80,000 (so I've heard)I made good money in the bush when I first started because it was year-round. The ski jobs are drying up though. I can still make decent money flying floats but for now I have opted for a steady year-round job in the oil patch.
Drinking lots of coffee lately, at a nice safe jungle desk, wishing I were flying......
Re: Fair pay.
I've often guessed, but wondered why that is. More winter roads? Too expensive? Global warming?1000 HP wrote:The ski jobs are drying up though.
Re: Fair pay.
Helicopters and roadssstaurus wrote:I've often guessed, but wondered why that is. More winter roads? Too expensive? Global warming?1000 HP wrote:The ski jobs are drying up though.
