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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:51 pm 
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Hello,

US development controller here, wondering what separation Canadian controllers use when a point out is made from the US on a VFR aircraft in your IFR airspace? Example: photo mission at VFR/175 running the boundary/entering 5 miles and reversing course. Do you block the altitudes above and below our VFR completely or can you apply standard RADAR separation from the target? Is this just another case by case basis that comes down to "technique"? For anyone not understanding, you can be VFR in the US below FL180 vs highest VFR altitude in Canada being 125, from what I've been told.



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:46 pm 
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I am not a controller but in Canada IFR only airspace (class A) begins at 18 000 as well.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:57 pm 
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ahramin wrote:
I am not a controller but in Canada IFR only airspace (class A) begins at 18 000 as well.


Good to know! Some of my trainers will be interested to hear this. Thank you.



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:27 pm 
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Supplementary question for controllers: what separation is provided between two VFR aircraft above 12,500msl both of which therefore must be on an ATC clearance (CVFR)?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:50 pm 
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Not a controller myself either, but to echo what ahramin said, you must be IFR at 18,000ft and above (18,000ft @ current altimeter setting) - This is class A airspace. The only exception is in Northern Domestic Airspace (on the US border this only occurs north of Alaska over the ocean) - the Class A airspace starts at FL270 there. The Designated Airspace Handbook from Nav Canada will tell you the exact boundaries, look at section 1.3 and the maps in the appendix: http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and ... ent_EN.pdf

Below 18,000ft, this page provides a good summary: http://www.ivao.ca/pilot/airspace,classes

Above 12,500ft and up to Class A(defined above - usually 18,000ft) you will either be in Class B (both VFR and IFR permitted, but both require a clearance), or class G (uncontrolled). Class B will be designated if there's any controlled airspace(C, D or E) anywhere directly below, otherwise usually Class G. Class B will be common on most of the southern border, with class G being common on the northern parts of the border (parts of Alaska/Yukon border).

A VFR aircraft entering Canadian Class B (implies 12,500ft+) would be required to get an ATC clearance prior to entry. Doesn't matter whether they enter laterally or vertically.



Last edited by nbinont on Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:28 pm 
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nbinont wrote:
A VFR aircraft entering Canadian Class B (implies 12,500ft+) would be required to get an ATC clearance prior to entry. Doesn't matter whether they enter laterally or vertically.


I just dug a bit deeper into my Canadian Flight Supplement and found the list of airspace classes. Now I'm wondering about CVFR too, does a RADAR handoff on a VFR aircraft already receiving advisories from the US constitute a clearance into Class B?



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:33 pm 
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You don't have a clearance until you hear the magic word "cleared", as far as I know.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:01 pm 
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I found the answer to the CVFR separation question in MANOPS:

392.1 Separate CVFR aircraft in Class B airspace above 12,500 feet ASL by standard IFR separation.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:04 pm 
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^ Photofly is correct on both counts. Cleared means cleared and IFR separation applies. Best way to explain it is IFR without the possibility of IMC.

Must be nice to have the ability to go VFR up to 18,000'. Would make survey less of a pain for both pilots and controllers... Wonder why this is something that isn't harmonized between our countries. I always feel bad when filing CVFR. You get the same sigh on the other end of the phone as when you mention photoblocks... But these ancient autopilots aren't always reliable, so CVFR it is sometimes.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:01 pm 
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There are parts of BC where you see VFR's above 12,500 on airways without the need for a clearance. Class B starts at 12,500 or at and above MEA, which ever is higher. In those instances, they are still in Class E.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:51 pm 
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Dratted mountains pushing the MEA up...now why didn't I think about that in Ontario? ;)


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