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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:14 am 
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Last Thursday I was doing a low and over at CYTZ and headed back north. I was instructed to climb and maintain 2500. I had a brain fart and had the little arrow on the wrong side of the 2, and the controller pointed out I was at 1500.

So.... controllers, what are the idiotic mistakes we pilots make that drive you nuts, ruined your day, or otherwise made you shake your head?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:30 am 
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Number one for me is a pilot who doesn't read back a frequency change and I have to repeat myself 3x and go check with the next controller if the pilot called. Number two is VFR pilots ranting about their request. All I want to know is what altitude you want and to where, too many times this turns into a minute long speech by pilots saying their life's story while I'm busy. Other than that I'm pretty easy going.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:37 am 
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Braun wrote:
Number one for me is a pilot who doesn't read back a frequency change and I have to repeat myself 3x and go check with the next controller if the pilot called. Number two is VFR pilots ranting about their request. All I want to know is what altitude you want and to where, too many times this turns into a minute long speech by pilots saying their life's story while I'm busy. Other than that I'm pretty easy going.


Your 1 happens to Hornets all the time, we can hear you, you can't hear us. I just switch to the next freq.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:39 am 
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Braun wrote:
All I want to know is what altitude you want and to where, too many times this turns into a minute long speech by pilots saying their life's story while I'm busy. Other than that I'm pretty easy going.


On that subject, if my destination is some small airport that the controller might not know would you prefer that I say it specifically, or a general direction of travel? Specifically flying from the Toronto area to Smiths Falls (CYSH), southwest of Ottawa. Would you prefer "blah blah blah to Smiths Falls", or "blah blah blah to Ottawa"?



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:21 pm 
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Chris M wrote:
Braun wrote:
All I want to know is what altitude you want and to where, too many times this turns into a minute long speech by pilots saying their life's story while I'm busy. Other than that I'm pretty easy going.


On that subject, if my destination is some small airport that the controller might not know would you prefer that I say it specifically, or a general direction of travel? Specifically flying from the Toronto area to Smiths Falls (CYSH), southwest of Ottawa. Would you prefer "blah blah blah to Smiths Falls", or "blah blah blah to Ottawa"?

It doesn't need to be a long readback...just "ABC roger" so that I know you heard me. Sorry I misread your post. I work in a terminal area so for me the most important info I want is what heading you will be taking and what altitude you want. Most major airports we know but for example controllers at YOW TCU are mostly from Montreal so they may not know small airfields in ontario and such. Keep it simple basically!
AuxBatOn wrote:
Braun wrote:
Number one for me is a pilot who doesn't read back a frequency change and I have to repeat myself 3x and go check with the next controller if the pilot called. Number two is VFR pilots ranting about their request. All I want to know is what altitude you want and to where, too many times this turns into a minute long speech by pilots saying their life's story while I'm busy. Other than that I'm pretty easy going.


Your 1 happens to Hornets all the time, we can hear you, you can't hear us. I just switch to the next freq.

I don't work Hornets very often but from what I recall most pilots acknowledge.



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:35 pm 
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In YYZ terminal....slowing down without telling me. The odd guy seems to think that doing 150kts on final without telling me when I have the guy behind him doing 170kts is fine. We can see your speeds on radar! If you can't do what we assign you...let me know and we will build in more space. Slowing down when the ILS is full and the controller does not know you have done it...is dare I say...rather stupid...and will most likely get you taken off the approach..rather than the pilot flying the assigned speed who is rapidly gaining on you.

Photo survey guys....don't ask for altitudes around YYZ that put you in confliction with every man and his dog and then complain when your request does not get approved. If 3000 ft overhead Downsview is the only altitude that works for your flight...be prepared to wait until we are on the 33s or 15s. Some pilots seem to think VFR is a licence to be anywhere they want...not realising that the TCAS on those planes coming and going from YYZ is giving out all sorts of TAs and RAs.

Apart from that...I know controllers do enough stupid things to annoy pilots...so it is easy come easy go as far as I am concerned.



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:50 pm 
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YYZ Tower perspective:
Changing frequencies before being told to do so on both ground and tower; would you change enroute?
Reminding ground that you're holding short;
Insisting your gate is open - until apron takes the gate hold off, you have to wait;
Not paying attention, especially when ground is busy;
Taking forever to line up then slowly starting the take off roll, especially mixed mode; you're delaying everyone behind you.
Not saying you're not ready until the last second and delaying traffic.

That'll do for now.



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:04 pm 
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I am not ATC but every now and then I hear something that pisses me off for the ATC types!

Down in the states heard a Delta plane check on... No reply for about 5 seconds then asked for who ever checked out to say again. The pilot replied "Delta XXX checking on at 340... let me guess you were on the other line?"

Yesterday a WS flight was landing and taxiing behind a slower moving American RJ. Told to taxi north on E behind the RJ. He then comes on and says we are 4 hours late, can we take B or 33R. (Even though traffic is going south on B) He requested this again, keeping the freq tied up making us as well as a few other planes waiting for hand offs to 121.9 or apron come to a stop. I could tell by the tone from ground that the time it took for him to deal with it screwed some things up.



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:08 pm 
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The near every Q400 that slow's to near double digit speeds on final but still needs 4500+ feet to rollout and exit, all while the 300's behind can hold 120-140+ all the way in and still exit in 2500feet. Even more fun when 2.5 in trail is a 767 or 777 still grounding 160+.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:38 pm 
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Braun wrote:
Number one for me is a pilot who doesn't read back a frequency change and I have to repeat myself 3x and go check with the next controller if the pilot called. Number two is VFR pilots ranting about their request. All I want to know is what altitude you want and to where, too many times this turns into a minute long speech by pilots saying their life's story while I'm busy. Other than that I'm pretty easy going.


Oops -- did # 1. To some Yyz terminal guy....was also monitoring and transmitting position reports on #2 com to busy practice area freq, heard you and acknowledged on wrong com and switched...tons of busy chatter cutting everyone off too. Sorry YYZ you do a great job with the VFR's , pretty nutty on sunny weekends I don't even like flying those days, imagine you guys occasionally feel the same.



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:57 pm 
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Rookie50 wrote:
Braun wrote:
Number one for me is a pilot who doesn't read back a frequency change and I have to repeat myself 3x and go check with the next controller if the pilot called. Number two is VFR pilots ranting about their request. All I want to know is what altitude you want and to where, too many times this turns into a minute long speech by pilots saying their life's story while I'm busy. Other than that I'm pretty easy going.


Oops -- did # 1. To some Yyz terminal guy....was also monitoring and transmitting position reports on #2 com to busy practice area freq, heard you and acknowledged on wrong com and switched...tons of busy chatter cutting everyone off too. Sorry YYZ you do a great job with the VFR's , pretty nutty on sunny weekends I don't even like flying those days, imagine you guys occasionally feel the same.

dont worry too much about it! None of us (pilots or atc) are perfect!



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:14 pm 
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Braun wrote:
Rookie50 wrote:
Braun wrote:
Number one for me is a pilot who doesn't read back a frequency change and I have to repeat myself 3x and go check with the next controller if the pilot called. Number two is VFR pilots ranting about their request. All I want to know is what altitude you want and to where, too many times this turns into a minute long speech by pilots saying their life's story while I'm busy. Other than that I'm pretty easy going.


Oops -- did # 1. To some Yyz terminal guy....was also monitoring and transmitting position reports on #2 com to busy practice area freq, heard you and acknowledged on wrong com and switched...tons of busy chatter cutting everyone off too. Sorry YYZ you do a great job with the VFR's , pretty nutty on sunny weekends I don't even like flying those days, imagine you guys occasionally feel the same.

dont worry too much about it! None of us (pilots or atc) are perfect!


Tx. I am impressed on a nutty day how many you guys can keep track of. Scuzzy days are much more relaxing for both pilots and ATC I'd imagine...just not too scuzzy hopefully getting into ZBA.



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:45 am 
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16SidedOffice wrote:
The near every Q400 that slow's to near double digit speeds on final but still needs 4500+ feet to rollout and exit, all while the 300's behind can hold 120-140+ all the way in and still exit in 2500feet. Even more fun when 2.5 in trail is a 767 or 777 still grounding 160+.


I don't fly the 400 but from what I know they cannot slow like a 100/300 and land full flap instead of flap 15 like the 100/300 which brings the speed back and the attitude down helping prevent tail strikes.

cossack wrote:
YYZ Tower perspective:
Changing frequencies before being told to do so on both ground and tower; would you change enroute?
Reminding ground that you're holding short;
Insisting your gate is open - until apron takes the gate hold off, you have to wait;
Not paying attention, especially when ground is busy;
Taking forever to line up then slowly starting the take off roll, especially mixed mode; you're delaying everyone behind you.
Not saying you're not ready until the last second and delaying traffic.

That'll do for now.


In the States and many other countries if you wait to be "handed off" on the ground you will wait until you are out of fuel. They expect the PILOT to know what the next frequency is.

My gate was open 2 days ago. Requested to "taxi to gate 256". Ground says "it's occupied" and we get to wait. STOC says gate it is open, "not sure why you're holding." We say gate is open and ground says no it isn't. 20 minutes later ground says taxi to your "NEW GATE" and it is! "256". Agents, ground handlers and maintenance waiting over 20 minutes at gate 256 which was never occupied.

Pilots are not always just sitting there doing nothing while waiting for another ATC transmission. Not paying attention usually means in the middle of doing paper work, talking to STOC, passengers, FA crew Sched, maintenance or dispatch. That'd be like like saying ATC When not transmitting is asleep at the screen.

Not to say that mistakes don't happen and attitudes sometimes get the better of people but these are just some of the things that could explain your issues.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:16 am 
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teacher wrote:
In the States and many other countries if you wait to be "handed off" on the ground you will wait until you are out of fuel. They expect the PILOT to know what the next frequency is.

Canada is not the states and that is not how we work. The frequency change signs were an almost complete failure: as pilots taxied past them remaining on the Ground frequency when Tower was looking for them or even more surprisingly, appeared on the wrong tower frequency. :roll:
teacher wrote:
My gate was open 2 days ago. Requested to "taxi to gate 256". Ground says "it's occupied" and we get to wait. STOC says gate it is open, "not sure why you're holding." We say gate is open and ground says no it isn't. 20 minutes later ground says taxi to your "NEW GATE" and it is! "256". Agents, ground handlers and maintenance waiting over 20 minutes at gate 256 which was never occupied.

Ground has no direct interaction with STOC. STOC has to tell Apron what the status of the gate is otherwise we (who can't see 256 and a whole bunch of other gates) rely on what Apron is showing us. If they aren't up to date then that's where your ire should be directed not at the busy controller whose the middleman. Sometimes the gate is open but Apron don't want you on the ramp due to congestion or some other reason and they will indicate "gate hold" to us but we don't distinguish between an occupied gate (unless we can see its occupied) or a different hold reason.
teacher wrote:
Pilots are not always just sitting there doing nothing while waiting for another ATC transmission. Not paying attention usually means in the middle of doing paper work, talking to STOC, passengers, FA crew Sched, maintenance or dispatch. That'd be like like saying ATC When not transmitting is asleep at the screen.

But there are two of you and one of me. Shouldn't one of you be on ATC comms? Just because you're taxying in or out doesn't mean you're immune from last minute route changes for whatever reason. You need to be heads up and ears on while on the ground. I know you have other stuff to do but surely the safety of a moving aircraft requires your attention too?
teacher wrote:
Not to say that mistakes don't happen and attitudes sometimes get the better of people but these are just some of the things that could explain your issues.

I agree we are not perfect either but one person is responsible for a bunch of aircraft that are going all over the airport in different directions if some of you aren't listening it feels like we are trying to herd cats. :wink:



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:03 am 
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I have a question for ground controllers...

Last night after requesting and denied landing on 05...it was busy, it happens and no biggie, we landed on 06R at YYZ and were taxiing to the North end. We were taxied all the way down A to H (expected). What was interesting was a right turn on H and hold short 23/05, ok that's different but we don't know what you've got going on. Seconds after getting to the hold short line, a 747 departs off 05...moments go by still holding short, then an arrival of a -8 who turned off prob 6000' before H...still holding short....then a slight delay and another departure and another and another, mixed in with arrivals. 20 mins passed and we were still holding short without a 30 pause to allow us to get across to J. I am curious of what the circumstances would be that we couldn't get a runway crossing at the departure end of 05. OR, who did we piss off?



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:39 pm 
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cdnpilot77 wrote:
I have a question for ground controllers...

Last night after requesting and denied landing on 05...it was busy, it happens and no biggie, we landed on 06R at YYZ and were taxiing to the North end. We were taxied all the way down A to H (expected). What was interesting was a right turn on H and hold short 23/05, ok that's different but we don't know what you've got going on. Seconds after getting to the hold short line, a 747 departs off 05...moments go by still holding short, then an arrival of a -8 who turned off prob 6000' before H...still holding short....then a slight delay and another departure and another and another, mixed in with arrivals. 20 mins passed and we were still holding short without a 30 pause to allow us to get across to J. I am curious of what the circumstances would be that we couldn't get a runway crossing at the departure end of 05. OR, who did we piss off?

I think I was North Ground for your "experience".
When 05 is busy we use the right on H to avoid blocking B. All runways were busy and you drew the short straw by first landing on 6R and then enduring what you did getting to K.
I was busy as was the North Tower guy (arrival was too busy to let you land there remember?) and there were a lot of departures on 05 too. Getting you across at H is not normally a problem. Traffic volume and RT loading meant the Tower guy and I didn't get an opportunity to coordinate the crossing in a timely manner.
As soon as that -8 was turning into the exit he was giving a takeoff clearance. There was very little wasted space although you might feel differently. You reminded me that you were still there and I said "I know". By this time you had been there over 15 minutes (about 20 from landing, I looked up the time while you were waiting :wink:) We got you across soon after.
Terminal are too busy to get you on the north runway but they don't realize how much work it can be to get you across two active runways at busy times. An extra few minutes in the air could save you that 20 minute taxi in.
I don't know when you make the request for 05, but Terminal makes the decision by 60 miles out. You really need to request 05 before then so that they can maybe swap you with someone from elsewhere who would prefer the south runway. We try our best too and if its too busy, its too busy.



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:51 pm 
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Cossack, thanks for the reply...I laughed a little when I read above the "please don't remind me you're holding short" and I of course did it :)

Quote:
An extra few minutes in the air could save you that 20 minute taxi in.
.

We actually discussed that while we were waiting saying we would have preferred to be # 10 to land on 05 than the #3 we were on 06R and then that delay.

As for the request for 05, we had asked Cleveland well before we were at OXMAN at the start of the arrival to pass along the request for us, knowing the Airspace was obviously very busy. We checked with each subsequent controller who told us they would pass along the request until one finally said "negative, you are 06R due traffic"

Thanks again, I appreciate the explanation.



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:20 pm 
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cdnpilot77 wrote:
Cossack, thanks for the reply...I laughed a little when I read above the "please don't remind me you're holding short" and I of course did it :)

I wasn't going to bite your head off because even I thought the delay was excessive.

cdnpilot77 wrote:
Quote:
An extra few minutes in the air could save you that 20 minute taxi in.
.

We actually discussed that while we were waiting saying we would have preferred to be # 10 to land on 05 than the #3 we were on 06R and then that delay.

As for the request for 05, we had asked Cleveland well before we were at OXMAN at the start of the arrival to pass along the request for us, knowing the Airspace was obviously very busy. We checked with each subsequent controller who told us they would pass along the request until one finally said "negative, you are 06R due traffic"

Thanks again, I appreciate the explanation.

You're welcome. Maybe add with your request that you're happy to accept extra miles.

Dave



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:27 am 
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As for the request for 05, we had asked Cleveland well before we were at OXMAN at the start of the arrival to pass along the request for us, knowing the Airspace was obviously very busy. We checked with each subsequent controller who told us they would pass along the request until one finally said "negative, you are 06R due traffic"


Cdnpilot77...I was actually in coordinator during this hour...and I am sorry to say it was myself who denied your request for 05. The arrival controller concurred at the time aswell.
We did get the request well in advance...and we always encourage you to request it as we really will try to accomodate you as we know what can happen on the ground.
In this case unfortunately for you, the combination of weather, traffic from other fixes, no visuals, and weather deviations inside and outside the arrival box made it too awkward to bring you over the top either in the arrival box or outside it (there was weather east of the field that had the IMEBA jets all coming in on slant headings, plus the BOXUM arrivals were left and right of the corridoor)
We actually gave a guy from LINNG 05 shortly after you...and when the controller put him on vectors to take him over the field he said he couldn't do it due weather.

Quote:
Terminal are too busy to get you on the north runway but they don't realize how much work it can be to get you across two active runways at busy times. An extra few minutes in the air could save you that 20 minute taxi in.


We try to give guys their runway of choice (just ask Fedex)...but those extra few minutes in the air on our side means we run out of room and altitudes rather quickly in an arrival rush. The coordinator is not thinking about the taxi routes on the ground when balancing the arrival flow.



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:00 pm 
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Thank you as we MAC for the explanation


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:58 am 
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cossack wrote:
YYZ Tower perspective:
Changing frequencies before being told to do so on both ground and tower; would you change enroute?


From a pilots perspective this is actually a little more complex then you would imagine depending on which airport you are at (in Canada). Some examples so you know why this might happen:

Vancouver expects you to know when to change from GND to TWR. The only aircraft they seem to specifically tell to switch frequencies are foreign carriers. And when you do switch to tower, telling them you are there is frowned upon while at other Canadian airports you would be sitting short forever as the TWR is waiting for you to check in ready to go.

Tower to departure changes.... I know the correct answer here is to stay with YYZ tower until handed off but I have made the mistake simply out of habit. Most other airports don't hand you off to departure as it is automatically assumed due to wording in the SID or "contact departure airborne" with the takeoff clearance. YYZ doesn't have that wording so I would be in the wrong to switch automatically. And to my knowledge, CYYZ is one of the few airports that operates like this. So sometimes on the last leg of a 5 leg day, the finger just hits that departure frequency in the backup com. I'll openly admit to being guilty of this once out YYZ.

Just a pilots perspective of how we actually sometimes have to ask ourselves mentally, "what airport am I at?" as each (even though in Canada) have unique little differences that we need to be aware of.



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:30 am 
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At YYZ we don't want/expect you to say "Hi" on Tower either. We expect you to be there and ready when you get to the end. If you're not ready and you're nearing the front, say something so we can work around you, especially going to 23 nearing H. Don't make the turn if you're not ready.

As for the change from Ground to Tower: there were some signs installed a few years ago and these were so unsuccessful that we give the frequency change after you've past the last conflict point. On 24R there is no sign down there and we don't want you changing until told to do so as we may insert traffic that has been waiting for a flow time ahead of you or give you a specific side to wait on.

Ground to ground changes happen more than we would like. One ground gets busy and misses a frequency change and you come to a stop (most likely leaving AK going B/T or AL going A/AK). If you change to the other ground on your own, the receiving ground does not have your FDE (electronic strip) and if its very busy, can become overwhelmed. I know the split for the grounds sometimes means multiple quick frequency changes. We try to avoid these as much as possible (straight from 121.9 to Apron at AK, or from south Tower to Apron having landed on 6L/R) but sometimes its not possible as we're too busy.

You may think you're helping us out but in fact you're doing the opposite. We try and keep continuous movement by giving sequencing instructions well ahead of time but there are times when there are just too many aircraft moving around to maintain that continuous flow, especially if someone is taxying on one engine at less than half the speed of everyone else. :roll:

The switch from Tower to Departure is not automatic and is normally given in the air as we are departing parallel streams and we are responsible for your separation from the other stream. Until YYC's new runway, YYZ was the only airport with consistent, parallel independent departures. Wrong direction turns do happen and its easier to see them visually than on radar and provide corrective action. Imagine being in the air between frequencies when someone makes the wrong turn. TCAS may not save you.

Switching to Departure from 6L/24R when landing right beside is just never done. Unplanned missed approaches will result in some formation flying and that's better handled with everyone on the same frequency. When we are departing just one runway we will say "28.8 airborne" and you'd be surprised at how many don't switch.



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:44 pm 
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Something that ATC and other pilots do that bother me is take too long between transmissions. Having flown in larger terminal airspace areas, if you leave a 1-2 seconds of dead air someone else will start broadcasting. In other areas of Canada with high commercial traffic but radio frequencies or MF's, many pilots and ATC take too long between replies. I can't count the amount of times I've waited about 5 seconds of dead air and start my transmission only to end up stepping on ATC or the aircraft they were last talking too. Typically you can tell by what each are saying to know when they are done the exchange but sometimes you listen, and it seems like they should still be talking yet there is dead air. I go hey, OK I guess I'll make my request now only to end up stepping on ATC or the aircraft. Makes ME look like the idiot yet I didn't really do anything wrong.

coles notes: speed up the exchanges in MF and radio areas. 5+ seconds between replies is too long and being used to flying in busy busy airspace it's super frustrating.



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:52 pm 
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If ATC doesn't answer it usually means they are "on the other line" with another controller.

As a pilot, the thing I find most annoying is pilots who switch to the freq and instantly transmit without taking a few seconds to see whats going on. That and pilots who call ATC when they have just given another AC and instruction and need a readback.



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:55 am 
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upintheair_ wrote:
Something that ATC and other pilots do that bother me is take too long between transmissions. Having flown in larger terminal airspace areas, if you leave a 1-2 seconds of dead air someone else will start broadcasting. In other areas of Canada with high commercial traffic but radio frequencies or MF's, many pilots and ATC take too long between replies. I can't count the amount of times I've waited about 5 seconds of dead air and start my transmission only to end up stepping on ATC or the aircraft they were last talking too. Typically you can tell by what each are saying to know when they are done the exchange but sometimes you listen, and it seems like they should still be talking yet there is dead air. I go hey, OK I guess I'll make my request now only to end up stepping on ATC or the aircraft. Makes ME look like the idiot yet I didn't really do anything wrong.

coles notes: speed up the exchanges in MF and radio areas. 5+ seconds between replies is too long and being used to flying in busy busy airspace it's super frustrating.

If I'm busy and don't answer it's because I am talking to someone else. Why would a controller purposely wait a few seconds? Mastering frequency control is a requirement to check out and we would never purposely do what you described above!



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