What happens if you wash out?

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MelsGP
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What happens if you wash out?

#1 Post by MelsGP » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:45 am

Hi all,

Just curious if anyone knows what happens if you wash out of training? Are you offered the opportunity to maybe step down to Flight Service, or VFR/etc or is that end of the line for you at NAVCANADA?

I know in the US if you wash out of training the FAA may reassign you to an easier center/position to try again.
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Re: What happens if you wash out?

#2 Post by rspencer38 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:58 am

If you get the boot then you're out. Your only course of action would be to reapply and go through the process again. At least that is my understanding.
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Re: What happens if you wash out?

#3 Post by Braun » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:00 pm

What spencer said is true. There are some cases where trainees get other opportunities but do not bank on it. There is no obligation or guarantee to do so.
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Re: What happens if you wash out?

#4 Post by DHC-1 Jockey » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:24 pm

rspencer38 wrote:If you get the boot then you're out. Your only course of action would be to reapply and go through the process again. At least that is my understanding.
Yes and no, at least as far as YYZ FIR goes. I went through for VFR starting last September and two of my classmates in the course previously washed out from IFR. As well, almost all new VFR controllers get YYZ as their first tower, and those who are unfortunate enough to not make it through are often reassigned to a smaller tower where the success rate is higher.

If you wash out, they do an exit interview and ask your preferences for future postings (locations, specialties, whether you even want to try another position, etc.) but as Braun said, there is no obligation to give you a second chance.
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Re: What happens if you wash out?

#5 Post by Driving Comet » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:42 pm

DHC-1 Jockey wrote:
rspencer38 wrote:If you get the boot then you're out. Your only course of action would be to reapply and go through the process again. At least that is my understanding.
Yes and no, at least as far as YYZ FIR goes. I went through for VFR starting last September and two of my classmates in the course previously washed out from IFR. As well, almost all new VFR controllers get YYZ as their first tower, and those who are unfortunate enough to not make it through are often reassigned to a smaller tower where the success rate is higher.

If you wash out, they do an exit interview and ask your preferences for future postings (locations, specialties, whether you even want to try another position, etc.) but as Braun said, there is no obligation to give you a second chance.
There has been some interesting decisions with regards to what happens to trainees in the YYZ FIR. Did your whole class get YYZ tower?
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Re: What happens if you wash out?h

#6 Post by Zatopec » Thu Aug 20, 2015 7:26 pm

MelsGP wrote:Hi all,

Just curious if anyone knows what happens if you wash out of training? Are you offered the opportunity to maybe step down to Flight Service, or VFR/etc or is that end of the line for you at NAVCANADA?
.
I hate it when people think that FSS or VFR is a step down from IFR. It's not! Not everyone wants to be IFR controllers, it's all a matter of choice.

We all have a job to do in the system. Remove any of the three from the equation and the system with come close, if not, completely shut down.
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Re: What happens if you wash out?

#7 Post by Globex » Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:35 pm

Driving Comet wrote:
DHC-1 Jockey wrote:
rspencer38 wrote:If you get the boot then you're out. Your only course of action would be to reapply and go through the process again. At least that is my understanding.
Yes and no, at least as far as YYZ FIR goes. I went through for VFR starting last September and two of my classmates in the course previously washed out from IFR. As well, almost all new VFR controllers get YYZ as their first tower, and those who are unfortunate enough to not make it through are often reassigned to a smaller tower where the success rate is higher.

If you wash out, they do an exit interview and ask your preferences for future postings (locations, specialties, whether you even want to try another position, etc.) but as Braun said, there is no obligation to give you a second chance.
There has been some interesting decisions with regards to what happens to trainees in the YYZ FIR. Did your whole class get YYZ tower?
Any examples in particular? :)
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Re: What happens if you wash out?

#8 Post by leftoftrack » Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:09 pm

Zatopec wrote:
MelsGP wrote:Hi all,

Just curious if anyone knows what happens if you wash out of training? Are you offered the opportunity to maybe step down to Flight Service, or VFR/etc or is that end of the line for you at NAVCANADA?
.
I hate it when people think that FSS or VFR is a step down from IFR. It's not! Not everyone wants to be IFR controllers, it's all a matter of choice.

We all have a job to do in the system. Remove any of the three from the equation and the system with come close, if not, completely shut down.
What's the money like in three different positions?
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Re: What happens if you wash out?h

#9 Post by MelsGP » Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:31 am

Zatopec wrote:
MelsGP wrote:Hi all,

Just curious if anyone knows what happens if you wash out of training? Are you offered the opportunity to maybe step down to Flight Service, or VFR/etc or is that end of the line for you at NAVCANADA?
.
I hate it when people think that FSS or VFR is a step down from IFR. It's not! Not everyone wants to be IFR controllers, it's all a matter of choice.

We all have a job to do in the system. Remove any of the three from the equation and the system with come close, if not, completely shut down.
I only meant a step down in course difficulty. I would say it's a fair assumption given the failure rates that the IFR course is slightly more complex than VFR/FSS.
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Re: What happens if you wash out?h

#10 Post by Braun » Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:24 am

MelsGP wrote:
Zatopec wrote:
MelsGP wrote:Hi all,

Just curious if anyone knows what happens if you wash out of training? Are you offered the opportunity to maybe step down to Flight Service, or VFR/etc or is that end of the line for you at NAVCANADA?
.
I hate it when people think that FSS or VFR is a step down from IFR. It's not! Not everyone wants to be IFR controllers, it's all a matter of choice.

We all have a job to do in the system. Remove any of the three from the equation and the system with come close, if not, completely shut down.
I only meant a step down in course difficulty. I would say it's a fair assumption given the failure rates that the IFR course is slightly more complex than VFR/FSS.
That really depends where you are posted. If you go to one of the four major towers it is same pay/difficulty usually than the ACC. They are two different jobs who both have their challenges. I know very little about the FSS job so I can't comment on it. We barely talk to FSS in my unit.
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Re: What happens if you wash out?h

#11 Post by MelsGP » Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:48 am

Braun wrote: That really depends where you are posted. If you go to one of the four major towers it is same pay/difficulty usually than the ACC. They are two different jobs who both have their challenges. I know very little about the FSS job so I can't comment on it. We barely talk to FSS in my unit.
That's fair.

Question for you - how much of success in training/qualification is based on the "either you've got 'it' or you don't" trope? As opposed to dedication, or willingness to learn.
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Re: What happens if you wash out?h

#12 Post by V2plus10 » Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:28 pm

Zatopec wrote:
MelsGP wrote:Hi all,

Just curious if anyone knows what happens if you wash out of training? Are you offered the opportunity to maybe step down to Flight Service, or VFR/etc or is that end of the line for you at NAVCANADA?
.
I hate it when people think that FSS or VFR is a step down from IFR. It's not! Not everyone wants to be IFR controllers, it's all a matter of choice.

We all have a job to do in the system. Remove any of the three from the equation and the system with come close, if not, completely shut down.
Are you implying FSS in smaller remote airports is as equally difficult as an arrival controller at YYZ/YYC/YVR/YUL? Or even that if an FSS person was not present all flying would stop. Personally (pilot perspective) I don't feel like that would be the case, sure it wouldn't run as smoothly but FSS is more of a nice to have than need to have.
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Re: What happens if you wash out?h

#13 Post by cyeg66 » Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:46 pm

leftoftrack wrote:
Zatopec wrote:
MelsGP wrote:Hi all,

Just curious if anyone knows what happens if you wash out of training? Are you offered the opportunity to maybe step down to Flight Service, or VFR/etc or is that end of the line for you at NAVCANADA?
.
I hate it when people think that FSS or VFR is a step down from IFR. It's not! Not everyone wants to be IFR controllers, it's all a matter of choice.

We all have a job to do in the system. Remove any of the three from the equation and the system with come close, if not, completely shut down.
What's the money like in three different positions?
Zing! Ouch.
V2plus10 wrote: Are you implying FSS in smaller remote airports is as equally difficult as an arrival controller at YYZ/YYC/YVR/YUL?
I'm sure that's not what they're implying.... Uh, yeah :rolleyes: but I agree with the sentiment that they all serve a purpose toward a common end.
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Re: What happens if you wash out?h

#14 Post by Braun » Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:27 pm

MelsGP wrote:
Braun wrote: That really depends where you are posted. If you go to one of the four major towers it is same pay/difficulty usually than the ACC. They are two different jobs who both have their challenges. I know very little about the FSS job so I can't comment on it. We barely talk to FSS in my unit.
That's fair.

Question for you - how much of success in training/qualification is based on the "either you've got 'it' or you don't" trope? As opposed to dedication, or willingness to learn.
Good question, there is no clear answer. Personally I believe there are 3 scenarios in ATC training:
1- people who will not make no matter how excellent the training is and even with top
Instructors

2- people who could make it provided they receive optimal training with good instructors and are sent to a sector that caters to that persons abilities. Some people are made for non-radar some for terminals and some for towers.

3- people who will make it no matter what because...like you said, they "got it" and yes "it" exists although most people in training nowawadays don't seem to grasp this!

I'd say number 1 and 2 are most common and #2 doesn't mean you will be a bad controller just that it will take a lot of hard work and dedication which everyone going through ATC training should have.

Work hard, do your best and you will find out pretty quickly where you stand!
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Re: What happens if you wash out?

#15 Post by SkyMik » Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:43 am

DHC-1 Jockey wrote:
rspencer38 wrote:If you get the boot then you're out. Your only course of action would be to reapply and go through the process again. At least that is my understanding.
Yes and no, at least as far as YYZ FIR goes. I went through for VFR starting last September and two of my classmates in the course previously washed out from IFR. As well, almost all new VFR controllers get YYZ as their first tower, and those who are unfortunate enough to not make it through are often reassigned to a smaller tower where the success rate is higher.

If you wash out, they do an exit interview and ask your preferences for future postings (locations, specialties, whether you even want to try another position, etc.) but as Braun said, there is no obligation to give you a second chance.

That's pretty interesting...so from your batch of trainees, most new controllers were stationed at YYZ Tower? Is this the norm, or was that due to operational requirements at Pearson last year? I'm interested (and slightly worried) about how each new controller is chosen for which tower.

Basically, i'm wondering what the likelihood is of getting stationed at YTZ or YYZ versus YAM out in Sault Ste Marie?

I should add, that during the call for an offer, they did mention it has been years (maybe exaggerating) since they sent a new controller to YAM...I'm guessing it's because it's a low turnover tower? Also, I have no issues moving anywhere and would be content stationed anywhere NavCanada thought appropriate, but just wondering!
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Re: What happens if you wash out?

#16 Post by Driving Comet » Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:59 am

SkyMik wrote:
DHC-1 Jockey wrote:
rspencer38 wrote:If you get the boot then you're out. Your only course of action would be to reapply and go through the process again. At least that is my understanding.
Yes and no, at least as far as YYZ FIR goes. I went through for VFR starting last September and two of my classmates in the course previously washed out from IFR. As well, almost all new VFR controllers get YYZ as their first tower, and those who are unfortunate enough to not make it through are often reassigned to a smaller tower where the success rate is higher.

If you wash out, they do an exit interview and ask your preferences for future postings (locations, specialties, whether you even want to try another position, etc.) but as Braun said, there is no obligation to give you a second chance.

That's pretty interesting...so from your batch of trainees, most new controllers were stationed at YYZ Tower? Is this the norm, or was that due to operational requirements at Pearson last year? I'm interested (and slightly worried) about how each new controller is chosen for which tower.

Basically, i'm wondering what the likelihood is of getting stationed at YTZ or YYZ versus YAM out in Sault Ste Marie?

I should add, that during the call for an offer, they did mention it has been years (maybe exaggerating) since they sent a new controller to YAM...I'm guessing it's because it's a low turnover tower? Also, I have no issues moving anywhere and would be content stationed anywhere NavCanada thought appropriate, but just wondering!
Your odds in YZ FIR are most likely YYZ or YTZ. Very unlikely to go to YAM.
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Re: What happens if you wash out?

#17 Post by photofly » Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:30 pm

YTZ tower... be very afraid :-)
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