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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:01 pm 
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Happened to me the other day... I'm curious as to what other ATC have to say. I was landing in one direction, number one to land with another aircraft 2min (reporting) behind me. This is in a Radio controlled airport (local).

I landed, and braked hard to make Alpha taxiway which is about 1/3 down the runway. Just as I turned off, and before I had crossed the hold short line or called down and clear, another aircraft had landed the opposite direction and was basically abeam Alpha, wheels down and braking hard. The winds were 18G25 and highly favoring the runway I landed on. This aircraft looked like it landed long and with an obvious heavy tailwind. It still had some significant forward momentum, nose was in full dive down mode as it passed me coming my direction. It all just seemed way too close for comfort. Had I needed to overshoot or roll it out to Bravo at the end of the runway there would have very likely been an incursion.



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:00 pm 
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If it felt too close for comfort, it probably was. Is alpha 1/3 down the runway that YOU landed on, or is it 1/3 down where he landed?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:26 pm 
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Had a similar incident last year at Collingwood. Unicom was stating winds favoured 13 with around 10 knots straight down the runway. All aircraft were using 13 except for one chucklehead who decided to come in on 31. He was warned twice the active was 13. The pilot who landed prior to him had to brake hard and hug the edge of the runway to avoid him. He avoided powering up and taking off again since he was well below take off speed and didn't know what the other pilot was thinking. Two and three in the circuit bugged out and waited until the situation on the runway played out. The pilot in error promptly turned around and took off without making any more radio calls. He headed off into the distance never to be heard of again. Don't know if it was dyslexia or drinking that made the pilot decide it was cool to use 31 but... Definitely made for some interesting conversations with lots of expletives during lunch.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:25 am 
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PostmasterGeneral wrote:
If it felt too close for comfort, it probably was. Is alpha 1/3 down the runway that YOU landed on, or is it 1/3 down where he landed?


1/3rd down the runway from my direction. 2/3rds from his. I spoke with the tower after the fact and they seemed pretty nonchalant about it and said the other plane "had me in sight the whole time." Personally, I didn't like it.



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:19 pm 
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What kind of "ATC" was this? It certainly doesn't sound like any ATC or FSS I've ever come across.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:57 pm 
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It was a radio frequency, but they are located on site in a small tower. I still believe that had that happened anywhere else or even possibly another controller it would have been a CADOR.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:39 pm 
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I don't think you understand what a controller is. A controller is the person with an Ir Traffic Control license, in a Control Tower, Controlling Traffic, in a Control Zone.

Your incident is starting to sound like a typical scenario at an Uncontrolled Aerodrome where an experienced pilot did something that made an inexperienced pilot nervous because of their inexperience. Wouldn't worry about.



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:11 pm 
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Oftentimes, i will hear a VFR pilot speaking to an FSS as if they were a Tower. FSS is advisory only for VFR traffic and the pilot states his/her intentions. IFR and VFR/IFR mix is , of course, another story!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:01 pm 
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Regardless of the experience of the person in the other aircraft, it was not a safe maneuver. Perhaps on a different day in different wind conditions it would have not been an issue. But this day it was.

And yes, I realize it's a radio freq. and not a tower/ATC. Based on the amount of traffic in and out of this airport most people treat it as such with minor changes to the calls to make it as though you are talking to radio. They do regularly give instructions to VFR traffic due to the heavy IFR in and outbound. Basically all the operators here have the proper credentials and work this airport to gain experience before moving on.

Anyways... not something I would have done. I'll move on and chalk it up to keeping a better lookout for these cowboys and knowing what my out is.



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:38 am 
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crazyaviator wrote:
Oftentimes, i will hear a VFR pilot speaking to an FSS as if they were a Tower. FSS is advisory only for VFR traffic and the pilot states his/her intentions. IFR and VFR/IFR mix is , of course, another story!


Huh?? What's the "another" story??? Same story.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:31 pm 
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W0XOF wrote:
crazyaviator wrote:
Oftentimes, i will hear a VFR pilot speaking to an FSS as if they were a Tower. FSS is advisory only for VFR traffic and the pilot states his/her intentions. IFR and VFR/IFR mix is , of course, another story!


Huh?? What's the "another" story??? Same story.


Maybe he meant that with a IFR, while the FSS is not giving active control, you will hear them relaying the clearance from ATC. Perhaps this could be confusing to VFR guys who hear FSS giving a call to someone with the phrase "ABC is cleared to..." and might think that FSS is giving control instructions, as opposed to a relay of the IFR clearance from ATC.

Just my guess....



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:44 pm 
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But back on topic - someone suggested that it sounded like an experienced guy doing something following an unexperienced guy, but no matter how you slice it, it didn't sound like a good idea. I've seen guys with a lot of experience do stuff that seemed close before and I think they are discounting the fact that the other fellow can't read minds and/or may do something seemingly erratic. I say "seemingly" erratic, because maybe the inexperienced guy looks like he's just about to touch down with no visible problems and then elects to overshoot. You don't know what's going on with him - he may be behind and just not feel like things are going the way he wants them to. Now, it sounds like this second fellow has taken away that overshoot option. Sometimes it's better to just spend an extra few minutes and keep a safety margin available. People an rush themselves right into an accident if they're not careful.

I say this from experience from when a guy rushing to take off in front of me (I was on final) accidentally misidentified the runway and took off in the wrong direction (or called the wrong one) - however it happened, he took off directly into me. I only saw him about 5 seconds before he passed my left wing, and the only thing that saved us was that he was following the curve of the valley and I was on a straight in over the hills on the localizer. All because he couldn't sit there and wait until I landed before he took off. Wonder where he had to be that was so important that he almost killed us all....?



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:13 pm 
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I dunno. People do awfully strange things occasionally.

I was on the ground preflighting the other day at my small uc field, see 2 guys on final, one guy short another way back. First guy lands, bit long nothing unusual, and absolutely hammers the brakes on his plane -- seriously screeching tires -- to make an exit. Private plane. Wrenched it off the runway.

Then I see the second plane doing a go around, I think. So why did the first guy half trash his plane to get off? Did he cut off the first guy on base and felt bad about it?

Gotta watch at busy UC fields. Something doesnt feel right even approaching the pattern from what you're hearing on the Unicom from other planes, take an extra slow 360 well away from the pattern. Let the idiots in such a hurray get out of the way. I've done that when I can't position everyone I'm hearing on a busy day and am not confident there won't be a conflict on my midfield downwind joining.

An extra minute of patience occasionally clears things up.



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:19 am 
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Rookie50 wrote:
An extra minute of patience occasionally clears things up.


Been in that position more than once coming into Brampton. On a sunny weekend it seems like everyone wants to land en masse all at the same time. Holding back and doing a few 360s is usually enough time to clear out the traffic.



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:39 am 
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Broken Slinky wrote:
Rookie50 wrote:
An extra minute of patience occasionally clears things up.


Been in that position more than once coming into Brampton. On a sunny weekend it seems like everyone wants to land en masse all at the same time. Holding back and doing a few 360s is usually enough time to clear out the traffic.


I avoid Brampton like the plague, even when transiting. Give a wide berth



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:45 am 
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HiFlyChick wrote:
W0XOF wrote:
crazyaviator wrote:
Oftentimes, i will hear a VFR pilot speaking to an FSS as if they were a Tower. FSS is advisory only for VFR traffic and the pilot states his/her intentions. IFR and VFR/IFR mix is , of course, another story!


Huh?? What's the "another" story??? Same story.


"Just my guess...."

That's why I was asking Crazyaviator.......... No need to guess that way.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:43 am 
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YXL can be a zoo at some times. I have seen plenty of "more experienced" pilots do things that they shouldn't have, while I've also seen plenty of low experience pilots make poor decisions! If you feel that things were done improperly, give the FSS supervisor a call and explain your concerns - nothing will be done if they don't know there is something to do something about!

I've been too close for comfort a couple of times there, the one that sticks out is when I was about 6 miles final, and the B1900 asks if they have time to depart 34 before we get in. I say sure, and start pulling the speed back... Vref+10, 5 miles final....they're off Alpha, backtracking 34... Vref+5., 4 miles final... they're taking forever to backtrack... Vref, still 2 miles final... ok, they're turning around now... Vref, 1 mile final ... why aren't they moving... Vref-2, 3/4 mile final ... finally on the roll!... I touched down within a second of them rotating! If they had had to reject, I would have been doing a very low level, low energy go around - not a situation I would like to be in! All because I thought that they had enough time to get out (which they did, had they moved with a little more sense of urgency!) Maybe I should have communicated the urgency a little better... maybe they shouldn't have asked to sneak out in front of us when they still had 3 pages of checklists to run before takeoff...



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:09 pm 
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When operating within a MF, it is your responsibility to see and avoid other traffic. It may suck at times but them's the rules.

FSS has no responsibility and in fact no ability to separate traffic.



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:30 pm 
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A346Dude wrote:
When operating within a MF, it is your responsibility to see and avoid other traffic. It may suck at times but them's the rules.

FSS has no responsibility and in fact no ability to separate traffic.


Yep. Occaisionally I have an unauthorized thought about the value in the MF system, since their relayed information is nothing I couldn't gather on my own in an UC setting.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me.



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:47 pm 
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A346Dude wrote:
When operating within a MF, it is your responsibility to see and avoid other traffic. It may suck at times but them's the rules.

FSS has no responsibility and in fact no ability to separate traffic.


Maybe get your facts straight. That is the FSS main responsibility, resolving traffic conflicts. Although procedures to do this are different than a Tower, there still are procedures to do so. "The objective of AAS is to provide information that is essential for the SAFE and efficient movement of arriving and departing aircraft".

The primary procedure to achieve the objective is in the initial traffic advisory. By providing clear and concise traffic information, this allows the pilot to make the safest decision to not conflict with other traffic. However, they don't always make the safest decision or as traffic situation evolves or gets more complex, further assistance is provided. It could be a simple as a radar point out or coordinate with "Can you's" or "request you". Can you extend your downwind, can you do a 360, can you maintain the north side of the valley, request you hold short etc. These conflict resolving procedures are carried out all day long.

If the Specialist is unable to resolve conflicts, I can tell you, they will be subject to Operating Irregularities and out of a job very quickly.

To keep this on topic, these procedures prevent aircraft landing without another aircraft occupying the same runway. If it were to happen, an AOR will be filled and an investigation will happen. The FSS will be held to account. As a pilot, you don't have to listen, but if you don't and a conflict arises or doesn't resolve, TC will hold you to account. There's a whole manual of operations outlining these responsibilities and procedures to resolve conflicts.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:13 pm 
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From my experience, when there is an IFR inbound and you are on the ground, ready for departure,,FSS does take a more controlling position. If its to do with VFR arriving,,,its an advisory position.

I once sold a Quickie 1 A/C to a fella from Brampton. Long story short, he took off on 33 and lost control, the plane went into a ditch and turned over,,,,, everything was fine until he went and disconnected his shoulder harness and hit his head on the canopy!!! I heard of this incident days later when i went to Brampton on business and was taxiing along a taxiway and noticed my old Quickie UPSIDE DOWN and tied down in its parking spot !! Seems they carried the plane upside down and plopped her right there. We had a few laughs on the phone and all is well ! :D



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:27 pm 
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crazyaviator wrote:
From my experience, when there is an IFR inbound and you are on the ground, ready for departure,,FSS does take a more controlling position. If its to do with VFR arriving,,,its an advisory position.


Even VFR they tend to give you instructions if you appear to be doing something dumb. Or, they will keep telling you that the circuit is in the other direction until you get it through your thick skull that you should perhaps conform.

However I find that general traffic advisories from FSS can't really be relied on. ATC are much more proactive about avoiding conflicts, whereas FSS will usually just give you a general idea of where other traffic might be and leave it up to you to do something about it.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:39 pm 
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CpnCrunch wrote:
crazyaviator wrote:
From my experience, when there is an IFR inbound and you are on the ground, ready for departure,,FSS does take a more controlling position. If its to do with VFR arriving,,,its an advisory position.


Even VFR they tend to give you instructions if you appear to be doing something dumb. Or, they will keep telling you that the circuit is in the other direction until you get it through your thick skull that you should perhaps conform.

However I find that general traffic advisories from FSS can't really be relied on. ATC are much more proactive about avoiding conflicts, whereas FSS will usually just give you a general idea of where other traffic might be and leave it up to you to do something about it.


+1. Hence my question. Not to mention repeating the same traffic to 3 different people can result in a lot of radio clutter, which can mean # 4 can't broadcast in a timely manner. It's a some what, can be confusing (to new pilots) half control setup. When it's really busy it's worse than simple UC when pilots can directly work out conflicts. Other times it's OK I guess. JMO.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:29 pm 
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Quote:
+1. Hence my question. Not to mention repeating the same traffic to 3 different people can result in a lot of radio clutter, which can mean # 4 can't broadcast in a timely manner. It's a some what, can be confusing (to new pilots) half control setup. When it's really busy it's worse than simple UC when pilots can directly work out conflicts. Other times it's OK I guess. JMO
Nailed that one on the head ! :wink:



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:32 pm 
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crazyaviator wrote:
Quote:
+1. Hence my question. Not to mention repeating the same traffic to 3 different people can result in a lot of radio clutter, which can mean # 4 can't broadcast in a timely manner. It's a some what, can be confusing (to new pilots) half control setup. When it's really busy it's worse than simple UC when pilots can directly work out conflicts. Other times it's OK I guess. JMO
Nailed that one on the head ! :wink:


Your local FSS should be more proactive. Ones with radar should be tailor making their traffic information, and only need to repeat traffic to more than one aircraft when none of the aircraft have each other in sight and have no plan to resolve the conflict. I understand your concern above and some FSS (usually the slower ones) operate that way and they shouldn't be. Busier sites can't operate that way as the specialist would get buried in traffic and conflicts fast. I would complain to your local FSS Supervisor to make it more efficient and safe. You should be getting better service than that. Not happy to hear that goes on still.

I work in one of the busier FSS in the country, and work with the mainline carriers and their regionals, and several other air carriers daily (plus schools and GA) and we could not get away with that with professional pilots/carriers or the schools. To be fair, we couldn't be as efficient without radar (not all sites have coverage).

Also you mention broadcasting above and directly working out conflicts with other pilots, that actually is contravening CAR 602.98.2.(a)
602.98 (1) Every report made pursuant to this Division shall be made on the mandatory frequency that has been specified for use in the applicable MF area.

(2) Every report referred to in subsection (1) shall be

(a) directed to the ground station associated with the MF area, if a ground station exists and is in operation
; or

(b) broadcast, if a ground station does not exist or is not in operation.


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