CpnCrunch wrote:
The difference with climbing is that it takes a while for your altitude to actually change, whereas with ident it appears immediately (along with your callsign, I assume). So if the controllers already have your flashing callsign on their screen, what possible reason would there be to say anything?
They should see it fairly quickly if you are climbing. it will take a while to get your final altitude, but a 100 - 200 ft difference should be fairly quickly to spot.
The reason to say anything would be to make sure that the person identing is the person they are actually talking to. And because you have to.
One could ask himself if pressing the ident button is a means of acknowleding an instruction, why not press it if you are cleared to climb as well?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
I was taught the only way to respond to a squawk ident was by pushing the ident button.
I have never been criticised for doing it that way.
ATC always returns with Identified through ... (In a 150 you are just about always climbing. ......slowly
I have had to talk with ATC after a transponder failure, and I assured them I was at 5500' (Calgary). Only later when getting the transponder fixed was the altimeter tested an found to have a 300-500' error at 5000'
Hey ATC "discusses" lots of things with me, I don't need to add to the subject list
LF
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Women and planes have alot in common
Both are expensive, loud, and noisy.
However, when handled properly both respond well and provide great pleasure
digits_ wrote:
One could ask himself if pressing the ident button is a means of acknowleding an instruction, why not press it if you are cleared to climb as well?
It's one thing to argue whether a read back is required with CARS or MATS(manops). To say that starting a climb, or pressing a button without a full readback is comparable to pressing Ident without a verbal readback is a poor comparison.
With a climb, it's not just the act of climbing but what altitude you will stop climbing. You need verbal or electronic confirmation. In an IFR environment seeing a target on a discrete transponder code identing after being asked (without a verbal read back) is clearly different. Acknowledgment and performing the instructed task (Identing) is done without confusion.
If you interpret a flash on screen as an electronic confirmation, then there's an answer for no verbal read back required.
A VFR control zone with multiple 1200 codes, may be different.
digits_ wrote:
The reason to say anything would be to make sure that the person identing is the person they are actually talking to. And because you have to.
But your callsign appears with the ident (assuming you are squawking the correct code). So ATC can immediately see whether or not the correct person is identing, unless my understanding of the system is incorrect.
I don't recall reading anywhere that a flashing ident is in anyway equivalent to or can be used in place of a verbal acknowledgement of an instruction from ATC. Except in the case of a radio failure, when ATC may ask you to acknowledge an instruction by "squawk ident." I do however recall reading instructions NOT to squawk ident as a means of acknowledging an instruction.
Therefore I can't see why the squawk ident should suddenly, uniquely, and without reference be adequate to serve as the acknowledgement of its own instruction.
On the other hand it would be stupid to ignore the fact that people do lots of things that don't follow the rules, and that sometimes ATCOs like it when people don't follow the rules, and sometimes people don't know they're not following the rules, think the rules are best when not followed, or that their different-from-the-rule-but-I've-always-done-it-that-way rules are the best.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
I have always just idented and teach same, never had a complaint. That doesn't mean it's correct though, maybe I'll start saying my callsign at the same time.
CpnCrunch, as long as your flight plan has been tagged up correctly with the ats unit you are dealing with then yes, they see your callsign top of your target's data block. It's fairly common however for the flight planning system in Pacific Region to drop the ball somewhere, even when you have filed a flight plan exactly the way they specify. I have many times assumed that the new controller after a handoff knew who I was and where I was going only to discover they had no info on me.
Helicopter guy in Calgary here. I've only squawked ident when asked, no response. After being asked to squawk, these guys are so busy talking to others that it takes a while for them to say I am identified. Maybe they get to to know me, but that's the way I handle it. Like others have said, we have our unique code, when we push that button, they know who we are!
AirFrame wrote:CAR's require acknowledgement of instructions. They don't require verbal acknowledgement of instructions.
If you are instructed to climb, do you just climb or do you read back the instruction as well?
Honestly, it would depend how busy the frequency was. On a quiet day i'd acknowledge because the start of a climb may just be me staying at the same altitude but with poor altitude control. Also as someone pointed out the altitude takes a while to change on the scope. IDENT shows up PDQ, I understand.
On a busy day, no, I wouldn't acknowledge... I'd start my climb a little steeper to make it clear i'm in the climb, and leave the freq open for other communications.
Thought I would chime in, this seems to be different around the globe, for example, my father who is a pilot for WestJet just had the ATC in London tell him that they dont confirm ident, they just give them the instruction, the pilot complies, and if not, the controller re-confirms why the ident sqwak wasn't completed. Different practices it seems....
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outflying8 wrote:Thought I would chime in, this seems to be different around the globe, for example, my father who is a pilot for WestJet just had the ATC in London tell him that they dont confirm ident, they just give them the instruction, the pilot complies, and if not, the controller re-confirms why the ident sqwak wasn't completed. Different practices it seems....
Interesting. I wouldn't mind that practice, honestly. I'm all about efficient radio use, though, whereas others treat the frequency as though they're a DJ and all you pilots are their adoring fans. The less speaking, the better. Particularly when it's busy as hell, I can focus more on my sequencing and shitty vectoring.
Honestly, if you verbally acknowledge identing, I might actually take a second to (diplomatically) ask you not to do that in the future.
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Turn right/left heading XXX, vectors for the hell of it.
If it is not busy and you are flying along with a burning question in your mind just ask the controller who is working you.
A caveat to the above. The controller may be working multiple sectors so even if your freq is not busy the controller could be, so I suggest you start the conversation with an initial short call "ABC , question"
If the controller is busy he will give you a polite brush off or tell you he will need a bit of time before he can answer your question, but usually they are happy to help you out.
Like any radio call be brief and to the point with your query
Over the years I have had numerous little points of procedure cleared up on the spot, not to mention a couple of free beers from the other guy/gal beside when I was right and they were wrong.
Big Pistons Forever wrote:If it is not busy and you are flying along with a burning question in your mind just ask the controller who is working you.
A caveat to the above. The controller may be working multiple sectors so even if your freq is not busy the controller could be, so I suggest you start the conversation with an initial short call "ABC , question"
If the controller is busy he will give you a polite brush off or tell you he will need a bit of time before he can answer your question, but usually they are happy to help you out.
Like any radio call be brief and to the point with your query
Over the years I have had numerous little points of procedure cleared up on the spot, not to mention a couple of free beers from the other guy/gal beside when I was right and they were wrong.
This. I love answering questions, it helps that I am always right...hahaha! Just kidding, don't be shy, we mostly are nice people. Mostly.
WestJet just had the ATC in London tell him that they don't confirm ident
As an IFR terminal controller who also happens to have worked in the UK...when I say "squawk ident" all I want is to see the ident...don't need a read back. If the callsign/correlated code on my radar screen flashes when I ask ...that is all that is needed for me.
I also agree with cyeg66...why waste R/T time with a pointless transmission. To the person that compared it to a climb instruction....Please!!! One action makes a little flash on my radar to confirm your Mode A, and even if you don't do it...in a terminal environment you correlate anyway!....the other action is a tool to separate aircraft from other aircraft where I need to know you heard the correct altitude. Which one is more important in the basic ATC sense?
On departure from YYZ we need a passing altitude to verify your mode C...so although you don't need to ident..we will ask for an altitude if you don't say anything.
I love all respectful dialogue of multiple views and opinions. If you want to chat with me directly, please do send me a PM 
