Overshoots at Toronto Pearson

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cossack
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Re: Overshoots at Toronto Pearson

#26 Post by cossack » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:12 pm

altiplano wrote:No. I wouldn't complain.

It's not like it's just an inconvenience or inefficiency.

It's a potential hazard, can put the aircraft into an inadvertent low energy state and creates a additional workload during a critical phase flight. The procedure should be revised.

It seems it's the tail wagging the dog as far as GTAA/TC/navcan procedures are concerned.
Maybe if its that big an issue, you should go through official channels. I've never had anyone make an issue of it before. The AC tail likes to wag the dog. Remember the standard taxi routes? That came from AC. Impossible to effectively use here but we tried and quickly binned it as unworkable.
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Re: Overshoots at Toronto Pearson

#27 Post by cossack » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:15 pm

fish4life wrote:In a heavy can / do you follow the 200kts in 10 miles / under 3000' speed limit on departure?
250kt speed limit on departure. If you are unable, just inform ATC what speed you need. No big deal.
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Married a Canadian
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Re: Overshoots at Toronto Pearson

#28 Post by Married a Canadian » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:57 pm

250kt speed limit on departure. If you are unable, just inform ATC what speed you need. No big deal.
Seconded...
It's a potential hazard, can put the aircraft into an inadvertent low energy state and creates a additional workload during a critical phase flight. The procedure should be revised
With apologies Altiplano...you will have to elaborate a bit more on that...I'm with Cossack....never heard of it being a problem..and both of us work either side of the procedure. I don't understand what you mean by "potential hazard". I may be ignorant...but I don't understand why a climb to 3000ft is a potential hazard?

Both aircraft are given 3000ft, terminal chooses which one to climb higher and then does an airborne crossover. It is a pretty simple procedure, and one that on the whole works well between Terminal and Tower. It is not unknown for terminal to call the tower and tell them to clear the non conformer to a higher altitude anyway...just requires a bit of preplanning. You don't often level at 3000ft ....if you call us promptly enough we will keep you climbing, because we don't want you level at that altitude either.

The procedure is not inefficient. How can it be when you are being allowed to depart from a runway that is not the standard for you direction of flight? You are cutting back across an active departure runway...with flights that might be crossing tracks from you OR going the same way. Either way we need something to work with , and the current procedure is deemed to be the best we have at present.

You are critiquing a procedure without taking into account that ATC is working around you (non standard departure runway) and that in a parallel/dual departure environment we have to keep a pretty tight rein on aircraft within close proximity to the field.
You say you wouldn't complain if kept out straight to 5000ft...believe me Terminal would. Unless you can suggest a way to not impact the departures off the other runway...I don't see the procedure changing anytime soon.

I suggest to call departure ASAP and we will get you climbing ASAP.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Overshoots at Toronto Pearson

#29 Post by AuxBatOn » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:24 pm

cossack wrote: Maybe if its that big an issue, you should go through official channels. I've never had anyone make an issue of it before. The AC tail likes to wag the dog. Remember the standard taxi routes? That came from AC. Impossible to effectively use here but we tried and quickly binned it as unworkable.
I do not maintain less than 250 on departure because it puts me at a disadvantage if I have an engine failure, and because I need to reduce my power setting so I don't climb at 10,000 ft/min (and increase my workload). Safety of flight is certainly always a caveat to these rules. I try, however, to advise ATC I will not comply.
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Re: Overshoots at Toronto Pearson

#30 Post by Married a Canadian » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:46 pm

I do not maintain less than 250 on departure because it puts me at a disadvantage if I have an engine failure, and because I need to reduce my power setting so I don't climb at 10,000 ft/min (and increase my workload). Safety of flight is certainly always a caveat to these rules. I try, however, to advise ATC I will not comply
No problems with that at all. I believe there was a thread earlier about speeds on departure (250kts below 10000) and I think most controllers were in agreement that operational requirement and safety were more than OK. When the Long haul heavy tells me he needs 260 or whatever is required...that is fine...most of YYZ terminal would agree.
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altiplano
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Re: Overshoots at Toronto Pearson

#31 Post by altiplano » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:21 pm

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