Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

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xnay
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Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#1 Post by xnay » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:20 pm

I was wondering the reasons why they might be short-staffed in these FIR's compared to the others since they are holding assessment sessions roughly three times a year versus one or two times in other regions.

Working environment? Location? Weather?

I'm from MB so I know winter is not the best and the terrain is not the most exciting, but at least if your dog runs away, you can see where he went for days.
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#2 Post by outflying8 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:23 am

I was told it was because they need a large compliment of staff to cover such a vast area and because they tend to have regular shortages in postings (high turnover type of deal I guess?) What I find peculiar is that they build up the applicant pool but never empty it out, just keep adding to it, which I understand they want the best of the best, but if you are good enough to be selected, why not take them? I dont handle the decisions quite obviously and I dont know what it costs (a lot I am sure) to train, but if they are truly that short, it would make sense to offer more regular training courses (increase from 2 per year to 4 per year) or something like that until the empty seats are filled.
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#3 Post by kevenv » Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:31 am

outflying8 wrote:but if they are truly that short, it would make sense to offer more regular training courses (increase from 2 per year to 4 per year) or something like that until the empty seats are filled.
All of this training requires qualified controllers to leave the floor to teach the course as well as more controllers to train you once you are on OJT. If they are short to begin with it is a drain and a burden on the existing staff. A balance has to be maintained. Not to mention, the size of a region's school will dictate how many people they can pump through.
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#4 Post by outflying8 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:12 am

kevenv wrote:
outflying8 wrote:but if they are truly that short, it would make sense to offer more regular training courses (increase from 2 per year to 4 per year) or something like that until the empty seats are filled.
All of this training requires qualified controllers to leave the floor to teach the course as well as more controllers to train you once you are on OJT. If they are short to begin with it is a drain and a burden on the existing staff. A balance has to be maintained. Not to mention, the size of a region's school will dictate how many people they can pump through.
Still it shouldn't take that much to get more regular going....don't they have designated trainers for the basic? as far as OTJ the qualified controller just supervises, provides feedback and intervenes when necessary correct? so how does it take additional man power to have the licensed controller switch seats? either way you need a controller on the scope, what difference does it make whether he is controlling directly or over seeing another person controlling?

I'm in YEG FIR and I know they have a decently sized facility with renovations being planned for this year....either way just a thought
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#5 Post by kevenv » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:57 am

outflying8 wrote:Still it shouldn't take that much to get more regular going....don't they have designated trainers for the basic? as far as OTJ the qualified controller just supervises, provides feedback and intervenes when necessary correct? so how does it take additional man power to have the licensed controller switch seats? either way you need a controller on the scope, what difference does it make whether he is controlling directly or over seeing another person controlling?

I'm in YEG FIR and I know they have a decently sized facility with renovations being planned for this year....either way just a thought
You make it sound like the company and people that do the training don't know what they are doing. As if you are walking in with the holy grail, THE answer to all of the training shortages. Sorry, but it isn't that simple. If it was, don't you think that it would be going on?

Wait until you get into training, then you'll realize the difficulties faced by the company and controllers.
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#6 Post by outflying8 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:27 pm

kevenv wrote:
outflying8 wrote:Still it shouldn't take that much to get more regular going....don't they have designated trainers for the basic? as far as OTJ the qualified controller just supervises, provides feedback and intervenes when necessary correct? so how does it take additional man power to have the licensed controller switch seats? either way you need a controller on the scope, what difference does it make whether he is controlling directly or over seeing another person controlling?

I'm in YEG FIR and I know they have a decently sized facility with renovations being planned for this year....either way just a thought
You make it sound like the company and people that do the training don't know what they are doing. As if you are walking in with the holy grail, THE answer to all of the training shortages. Sorry, but it isn't that simple. If it was, don't you think that it would be going on?

Wait until you get into training, then you'll realize the difficulties faced by the company and controllers.

WOW dude CALM DOWN! im asking questions and discussing it, its a forum, people ask questions and give opinions you need to chill out Mr. Keyboard Warrior.

EDIT: Also i never once said that they don't know what they are doing, there could be budget constraints or any other number of things, its just dialogue....so relax, no one is kicking your dog; don't be so touchy.
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#7 Post by Pretz_ » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:35 pm

I keep hearing that courses have a 30% to 40% pass rate. Statistics like that apply to individuals, not groups. Unless I'm mistaken, it's possible for every student in a year to pass, in which case they'd have to debate cutting perfectly qualified people if they don't have enough positions open. When you consider that 10 students will eventually cost over $1M in wages annually, it's not surprising they'd be cautious. A deferred recruit might apply again, but a class of students who get cut when they perform just fine are all enemies for life.

But that's just my speculation.
outflying8 wrote:WOW dude CALM DOWN! im asking questions and discussing it, its a forum, people ask questions and give opinions you need to chill out Mr. Keyboard Warrior.

EDIT: Also i never once said that they don't know what they are doing, there could be budget constraints or any other number of things, its just dialogue....so relax, no one is kicking your dog; don't be so touchy.
Careful guys, these are exactly the kinds of hot reactions to criticism they keep warning against that get people canned on course...
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#8 Post by outflying8 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:42 pm

Pretz_ wrote:I keep hearing that courses have a 30% to 40% pass rate. Statistics like that apply to individuals, not groups. Unless I'm mistaken, it's possible for every student in a year to pass, in which case they'd have to debate cutting perfectly qualified people if they don't have enough positions open. When you consider that 10 students will eventually cost over $1M in wages annually, it's not surprising they'd be cautious. A deferred recruit might apply again, but a class of students who get cut when they perform just fine are all enemies for life.

But that's just my speculation.
outflying8 wrote:WOW dude CALM DOWN! im asking questions and discussing it, its a forum, people ask questions and give opinions you need to chill out Mr. Keyboard Warrior.

EDIT: Also i never once said that they don't know what they are doing, there could be budget constraints or any other number of things, its just dialogue....so relax, no one is kicking your dog; don't be so touchy.
Careful guys, these are exactly the kinds of hot reactions to criticism they keep warning against that get people canned on course...
Hey that's a very interesting point as well! hadn't thought of that so thanks for adding!

Were you referring to my comment or his? I didn't get why he was so upset over that, i'm just discussing this and it looked like he took it personally like my argument was attacking him personally or something....either way thanks for the dialogue pretz
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#9 Post by Pretz_ » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:55 pm

outflying8 wrote:Were you referring to my comment or his?
Both - A lot of the the questions in my interview revolved around how I handle (sometimes short) criticism, so I'm going into it with the attitude that I don't know shit from shit, and if someone says I don't know shit from shit, they're not insulting me, just acknowledging a truth. :wink:
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#10 Post by outflying8 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:58 pm

Pretz_ wrote:
outflying8 wrote:Were you referring to my comment or his?
Both - A lot of the the questions in my interview revolved around how I handle (sometimes short) criticism, so I'm going into it with the attitude that I don't know shit from shit, and if someone says I don't know shit from shit, they're not insulting me, just acknowledging a truth. :wink:
Fair enough, my comment was definitely a little over the top I will admit, I just roll my eyes when people get all up in arms over stuff that has no direct effect on them. I love a good argument/viewpoint but insulting others or suggesting that they think their ideas are gold is just childish.

Ya I can take criticism well from my employer and people I ask for it from, but from my peers/colleagues, they better be respectful with it. I can admit when I am wrong and have no problem being told that I am incorrect, they just don't need to call me stupid to do it or presume to tell me what I am and am not thinking.....

Regardless, thanks for your commentary :)
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#11 Post by kevenv » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:07 pm

Outflying8 you are in for a very long road if you think my comments were over the top and that I need to CALM DOWN lol. The process you are undertaking is akin to a 2 year job interview with constant critique. You my internet friend are the one that needs to calm down and not be so defensive and sensitive. My advice is free and as such isn't worth much. Then again I have gone through the process. Successfully. Two words and then I'll quit the thread;

"Thick Skin"

Good luck
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#12 Post by outflying8 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:14 pm

kevenv wrote:Outflying8 you are in for a very long road if you think my comments were over the top and that I need to CALM DOWN lol. The process you are undertaking is akin to a 2 year job interview with constant critique. You my internet friend are the one that needs to calm down and not be so defensive and sensitive. My advice is free and as such isn't worth much. Then again I have gone through the process. Successfully. Two words and then I'll quit the thread;

"Thick Skin"

Good luck
I never said they were over the top, I just felt they lacked substance....telling someone what their opinion is ("you think you hold the holy grail") isnt informative, constructive or useful, and comments like "just wait...you will see" again does nothing but implies that you are upset about some ignaramous questioning the process. There is never a bad question or a reason not to question something, provided it does not cause harm. Yes in a job situation you do what you are told regardless of reason, but when you are casually discussing something on an internet forum there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to critique/ask questions...


If you weren't upset I apologize, that is just the tone that seemed inferred by the verbiage you used in your comment. For the record, I think NavCanada is an excellent organization and I hope to be lucky enough to be given the opportunity to work for them. I was just wanting to discuss the lack of training classes, I am sure there are good reasons, I just couldn't think of too many.

Regardless, thanks for your input and good luck with your application/training/career (whatever step you happen to be at).
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#13 Post by Mayor_McCheese » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:19 pm

outflying8 wrote: as far as OTJ the qualified controller just supervises, provides feedback and intervenes when necessary correct? so how does it take additional man power to have the licensed controller switch seats? either way you need a controller on the scope, what difference does it make whether he is controlling directly or over seeing another person controlling?
Some controllers enjoy training, some don't. And you'd be surprised how tiring it can be as an OJI. Not only do you need to be watching what the trainee is doing, anticipating what their plan is, but also what your plan is in case you do need to intervene. In my opinion it is easier to just work the position yourself rather than watching a trainee. In a tower or specialty that goes through a lot of trainees, it is possible for even the best OJIs to get burned out and need a break from training.

Do yourself a favour and don't ever tell an OJI that they "are JUST supervising, providing feedback and intervening when necessary", there is way more to it than that.

Kevenv is definitely right. You'll need thick skin, and a short memory when it comes to criticism. Learn the lessons, but don't take it personally.
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#14 Post by outflying8 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:25 pm

Mayor_McCheese wrote:
outflying8 wrote: as far as OTJ the qualified controller just supervises, provides feedback and intervenes when necessary correct? so how does it take additional man power to have the licensed controller switch seats? either way you need a controller on the scope, what difference does it make whether he is controlling directly or over seeing another person controlling?
Some controllers enjoy training, some don't. And you'd be surprised how tiring it can be as an OJI. Not only do you need to be watching what the trainee is doing, anticipating what their plan is, but also what your plan is in case you do need to intervene. In my opinion it is easier to just work the position on your own rather than watching a trainee. In a tower or specialty that goes through a lot of trainees, it is possible for even the best OJIs to get burned out and need a break from training. Do yourself a favour and don't ever tell an OJI that they "are JUST supervising, providing feedback and intervening when necessary", there is way more to it than that.

Kevenv is definitely right. You'll need thick skin, and a short memory when it comes to criticism. Learn the lessons, but don't take it personally.

Excellent points, definitely didn't consider the part about OJIs having to anticipate not only the traffic on the scope but also their trainees actions. When you put that into perspective its like doing 2 jobs (well more than that but you get the picture) at once, that would drain 99% of people I am sure!

I take criticism well from any employer, supervisor, trainer but I will admit taking criticism from peers in a situation where I feel they aren't being respectful I tend to get irritated, something to work on.

Thanks for you input!
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#15 Post by TheSealRimRady » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:37 am

If you weren't upset I apologize, that is just the tone that seemed inferred by the verbiage you used in your comment. For the record, I think NavCanada is an excellent organization and I hope to be lucky enough to be given the opportunity to work for them. I was just wanting to discuss the lack of training classes, I am sure there are good reasons, I just couldn't think of too many.
that is just the tone that seemed inferred by the verbiage
Your usage of 'inferred' was gramatically incorrect. That sort of grammar doesn't fly at Nav Canada.
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#16 Post by outflying8 » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:50 pm

TheSealRimRady wrote:
If you weren't upset I apologize, that is just the tone that seemed inferred by the verbiage you used in your comment. For the record, I think NavCanada is an excellent organization and I hope to be lucky enough to be given the opportunity to work for them. I was just wanting to discuss the lack of training classes, I am sure there are good reasons, I just couldn't think of too many.
that is just the tone that seemed inferred by the verbiage
Your usage of 'inferred' was gramatically incorrect. That sort of grammar doesn't fly at Nav Canada.

Haha I don't really proof read on forum posts.....I will ask why it is grammatically incorrect. Would it be better to say "...seemed to be inferred"? While we are on the business of grammar, your use of grammatically was spelled incorrectly (it has two m's in it) :wink:

Love the pun though!
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#17 Post by xnay » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:32 pm

So what I've distilled from the comments thus far is that:

- size of facilities for training; and
- number of controllers available/willing to teach classes and OJI

have an effect on the number of sessions needed for a particular FIR.

Can anyone tell me why there is such high turnover, beside the intensity of the job or the nature of shift work?
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#18 Post by NJ » Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:42 pm

The turnover isn't so much people resigning and leaving the company. There are people that bid to other units, retire, or go on parental leave etc. The tough part is that not everybody can do the job and it takes a lot of resources to get a licensed controller through all the training. Specialty/Unit specific training courses don't appear out of thin air, they are created by operational controllers as well as all the simulator runs. You can only remove so many controllers from the operation before it gets overwhelming for the remaining staff. The course creation and delivery has to occur at the same time as all the other stuff going on such as the renovations mentioned before, refresher courses, equipment changes and the normal traffic that occurs every day.

Over my career so far I've seen OJT fatigue from all sides of training. As an OJI, it takes a lot more energy to instruct rather than work solo as you have to monitor the trainee to ensure they do the job safely. When you are working solo, you have your plan and you know it's the proper plan, but your trainee can come in with a different plan than you would have. So you, as an instructor, have to be comfortable with letting the trainee run with their plan while being prepared to step in at any moment if things go too far. As well you have to keep a calm demeanour so the trainee can build confidence and not be distracted from their plan, plus keep enough mental notes (or chicken scratch notes like I do) so you can debrief effectively when finished. Needless to say it takes a lot of energy to be an effective OJI, and I find it's not something that you get comfortable doing. A good day of OJT is the same for me as working a busy day of thunderstorms or a snow event.

On the other side of training, being a trainee sucks. kevenv is 100% correct that it is like a 2 year job interview. It doesn't stop sucking even when you are a qualified controller trying at another unit/specialty. Once you are qualified, it becomes easier. That is, until they ask if you want to have a trainee ;). outflying8, you say you have a tough time taking criticism from peers. While your fellow trainees won't be criticizing you, you can expect to receive advise/criticism for 2 years solid from all people in all different positions in the company. Be a sponge for opinions and listen to everyone who can offer you their take on the profession. It's up to you to on what to do with the advice, but there is no point to dismissing advice out of hand based on the source. Once you are qualified, you will get tips and pointers constantly from your fellow controllers, so don't expect it to end any time soon!
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#19 Post by xnay » Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:27 am

NJ wrote:The turnover isn't so much people resigning and leaving the company. There are people that bid to other units, retire, or go on parental leave etc. The tough part is that not everybody can do the job and it takes a lot of resources to get a licensed controller through all the training. Specialty/Unit specific training courses don't appear out of thin air, they are created by operational controllers as well as all the simulator runs. You can only remove so many controllers from the operation before it gets overwhelming for the remaining staff. The course creation and delivery has to occur at the same time as all the other stuff going on such as the renovations mentioned before, refresher courses, equipment changes and the normal traffic that occurs every day.

Over my career so far I've seen OJT fatigue from all sides of training. As an OJI, it takes a lot more energy to instruct rather than work solo as you have to monitor the trainee to ensure they do the job safely. When you are working solo, you have your plan and you know it's the proper plan, but your trainee can come in with a different plan than you would have. So you, as an instructor, have to be comfortable with letting the trainee run with their plan while being prepared to step in at any moment if things go too far. As well you have to keep a calm demeanour so the trainee can build confidence and not be distracted from their plan, plus keep enough mental notes (or chicken scratch notes like I do) so you can debrief effectively when finished. Needless to say it takes a lot of energy to be an effective OJI, and I find it's not something that you get comfortable doing. A good day of OJT is the same for me as working a busy day of thunderstorms or a snow event.

On the other side of training, being a trainee sucks. kevenv is 100% correct that it is like a 2 year job interview. It doesn't stop sucking even when you are a qualified controller trying at another unit/specialty. Once you are qualified, it becomes easier. That is, until they ask if you want to have a trainee ;). outflying8, you say you have a tough time taking criticism from peers. While your fellow trainees won't be criticizing you, you can expect to receive advise/criticism for 2 years solid from all people in all different positions in the company. Be a sponge for opinions and listen to everyone who can offer you their take on the profession. It's up to you to on what to do with the advice, but there is no point to dismissing advice out of hand based on the source. Once you are qualified, you will get tips and pointers constantly from your fellow controllers, so don't expect it to end any time soon!
NJ, thank you very much for your concise answer. This is very helpful and informative.
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Re: Why do YWG and YEG hold more assessment sessions?

#20 Post by outflying8 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:14 am

NJ wrote:The turnover isn't so much people resigning and leaving the company. There are people that bid to other units, retire, or go on parental leave etc. The tough part is that not everybody can do the job and it takes a lot of resources to get a licensed controller through all the training. Specialty/Unit specific training courses don't appear out of thin air, they are created by operational controllers as well as all the simulator runs. You can only remove so many controllers from the operation before it gets overwhelming for the remaining staff. The course creation and delivery has to occur at the same time as all the other stuff going on such as the renovations mentioned before, refresher courses, equipment changes and the normal traffic that occurs every day.

Over my career so far I've seen OJT fatigue from all sides of training. As an OJI, it takes a lot more energy to instruct rather than work solo as you have to monitor the trainee to ensure they do the job safely. When you are working solo, you have your plan and you know it's the proper plan, but your trainee can come in with a different plan than you would have. So you, as an instructor, have to be comfortable with letting the trainee run with their plan while being prepared to step in at any moment if things go too far. As well you have to keep a calm demeanour so the trainee can build confidence and not be distracted from their plan, plus keep enough mental notes (or chicken scratch notes like I do) so you can debrief effectively when finished. Needless to say it takes a lot of energy to be an effective OJI, and I find it's not something that you get comfortable doing. A good day of OJT is the same for me as working a busy day of thunderstorms or a snow event.

On the other side of training, being a trainee sucks. kevenv is 100% correct that it is like a 2 year job interview. It doesn't stop sucking even when you are a qualified controller trying at another unit/specialty. Once you are qualified, it becomes easier. That is, until they ask if you want to have a trainee ;). outflying8, you say you have a tough time taking criticism from peers. While your fellow trainees won't be criticizing you, you can expect to receive advise/criticism for 2 years solid from all people in all different positions in the company. Be a sponge for opinions and listen to everyone who can offer you their take on the profession. It's up to you to on what to do with the advice, but there is no point to dismissing advice out of hand based on the source. Once you are qualified, you will get tips and pointers constantly from your fellow controllers, so don't expect it to end any time soon!
It is posts like this that make forums so successful, thank you for your great in depth info and advice to all of us waiting for our shot, or in the process of taking said shot. You have a great day sir!
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