Protected Airspace!

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split s
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Protected Airspace!

Post by split s » Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:20 am

My question is, if given a hold @ 5000' inbound 180 to xxx ndb, you call entering the hold(how much airspace do have on either side of the inbound track). Now you call established in the hold, is that airspace reduced in size(and what is the size). The reason I am asking is a discussion about parallel entry into the hold and the entry procedure, I think the other guy is f'ed in the head but I could not totally disagree without knowing the dimentions of airspace.

One more Q! Say we are in Norway House, we talk to radio and ask for the IFR to xxx, it's taking too long to get a clearence or we hear another a/c on the way in and know we won't get the clearence yet(WX is vfr) so we cancel the ifr and go on our short trip vfr(no prob). If we are going to YWG, and we are going to need the IFR, can we tell radio we will be off 23 vfr to ywg and then try to get the clearence in the air or would we need to get the vfr departure(say we are filed but have not requested or activated our IFR). Maybe YRL would be a better example because of better radar and radio coverage with center. With this scenario, can we leave vfr on our own and then call center and get the clearence?

thanks SS
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Post by Pygmie » Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:51 am

I'll have to let someone with a little more experiance answer the second question, but as far as the airspace protected for the hold it is the same size regardless of whether you have reported established, reported entering, or not yet reported anything. As soon as a clearance is issued the airspace for the hold is protected.

As far as how large that airspace is, it varies greatly with altitude, distance from the NAVAID, speed of the aircraft, etc.

But for your example, an aircraft @5,000 inbound 180 to xx ndb, holding at the ndb, and holding at a speed of 175kts, the airspace to be protected would be 3.8 NM South of the NDB, 4.5 NM on the holding side of the track, 2.9 NM on the non-holding side of the track, and 8.7 NM north of the NDB.
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Post by lilfssister » Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:36 pm

I'll take a crack at your second question.

If you cancel your IFR flight plan, the message gets passed to the ACC and they file all your flight plan info/data strips in the round file. So if this happens quickly enough, you're essentially going to have to file a new flight plan.

If you depart VFR without a VFR departure approval from the ACC, you should be prepared to fly all the way to destination VFR.

In either scenario, you could luck out and get your clearance anyway, depending on workload at the ACC, but you may not.
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Post by split s » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:03 pm

[quote="lilfssister"]

If you depart VFR without a VFR departure approval from the ACC, you should be prepared to fly all the way to destination VFR.[/quote]

OK, why do you say that? Is it illeagal, or, Is the contoller just going to be pissed? What is the rule? I have asked other pilots and nobody has been able to give a good opionion or explanation! I cannot find where it is not acceptable, or else i'm totally missing something (which isn't hard to believe). :?
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Post by zzjayca » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:39 pm

split s wrote: OK, why do you say that? Is it illeagal, or, Is the contoller just going to be pissed? What is the rule? I have asked other pilots and nobody has been able to give a good opionion or explanation! I cannot find where it is not acceptable, or else i'm totally missing something (which isn't hard to believe). :?

The problem is you are still on an IFR flight plan. Since you are on an IFR flight plan, you are not permitted to enter controlled airspace without a clearance.

If you look at a low enroute chart you can see that CYNE is a controlled airport. Just because an airport doesn't have a TWR doesn't mean that IFR control service isn't being provided.

Furthermore, when you depart VFR on an IFR flight plan, your alerting service is provided for by ATC not FSS. If you depart VFR without approval, and haven't switched to a VFR flight plan, there is a possibility that no one will be providing alerting service for you. ATC thinks you are VFR for the whole flight since no authorization was given, and FSS thinks you are IFR.
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Post by lilfssister » Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:10 pm

zzjayca wrote:
split s wrote:

Furthermore, when you depart VFR on an IFR flight plan, your alerting service is provided for by ATC not FSS. If you depart VFR without approval, and haven't switched to a VFR flight plan, there is a possibility that no one will be providing alerting service for you. ATC thinks you are VFR for the whole flight since no authorization was given, and FSS thinks you are IFR.
I won't think you're on an IFR flight plan if you depart without VFR departure approval. I'll think you're flying without a flight plan, and I will suggest you call the FIC and file a VFR flight plan, or ask if you're going on a comapny itinerary.
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Post by split s » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:48 pm

There are endless possibilities and scenarios I guess. Just remember it's vfr (and lets use YRL), say severe clear, so you do not need a clearence to depart, you call FSS leaving on a company note,vfr, once away from the zone you are in uncontrolled airspace up to 12,500.just the same as if you were to leave YRS up north to FL180(yes or no?) Then you call YWG for a clearence to flight levels. What is going to happen? Is there anything other than being a bit against the norm, that would be wrong? Does your IFR itinerary or Flight plan only kick in when you ask for it and recieve a clearence?

I can see if you said to fss,you were cancelling Ifr and departing on a company note and then departed and called center later to get a clearence that they would probably say "Up yours"! What about the above?
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Post by Flying Low » Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:10 am

6.2.2 VFR Release of an IFR Aircraft

When a delay is experienced in receiving an IFR departure clearance, a pilot may request approval to depart and maintain VFR until an IFR clearance can be received. The conditions in RAC 6.2.1 also apply in this situation. If the request for a VFR departure is approved, the pilot will be given a time, altitude or location at which to contact ATC for an IFR clearance. Depending upon the reasons for the IFR departure clearance delay, a VFR departure of an IFR flight may not be approved by the IFR unit. In situations such as these, it may be desirable for the pilot to wait for the IFR departure clearance.
According to this you can request it; if turned down you may leave anyway (it only says "...may be desirable..." but depending on the reason (traffic) you may find yourself in the air with ATC unable to fit you in.
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Post by lilfssister » Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:54 am

Flying Low wrote:
6.2.2 VFR Release of an IFR Aircraft
Depending upon the reasons for the IFR departure clearance delay, a VFR departure of an IFR flight may not be approved by the IFR unit. In situations such as these, it may be desirable for the pilot to wait for the IFR departure clearance.
According to this you can request it; if turned down you may leave anyway (it only says "...may be desirable..." but depending on the reason (traffic) you may find yourself in the air with ATC unable to fit you in.
Yes you may leave, but you are not on an IFR flight plan if you depart without approval. That bolded part says it may be desirable to wait for IFR departure clearance, not that if you launch anyway you will get a clearance later. FSS should be calling and telling the ACC you departed without approval, so they may expect to hear from you at some point, but it doesn't mean you're going to get a clearance. If the ACC turned down your request, it probably means they can't fit you in, which is why you should be prepared to go all the way to destination VFR. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've relayed a request for VFR departure and had it denied. In at least two of those cases there were emergencies in progress. Other times it was "ordinary" but heavy workload.
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Post by split s » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:45 pm

Well, I think i have a good enough understanding of this type of situation. If you are in a real rush you can give it a go and take your chances, otherwise pull the park lever!

thanks SS
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Post by zzjayca » Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:19 am

The very simple way to tell if an aerodrome is controlled is to look at a low level IFR enroute chart. If the colour of the chart surrounding the aerodrome is white, the aerodrome is controlled. (Not to be confused with an aerodrome for which airport control service is provided. ) If the colour of the chart surrounding the aerodrome is green, then it is uncontrolled.
split s wrote:Well, I think i have a good enough understanding of this type of situation. If you are in a real rush you can give it a go and take your chances, otherwise pull the park lever!

thanks SS
If the aerodrome is controlled, (remember look at a chart, it's easy to determine) only if you cancel your IFR flight plan. If not, you are in violation of CARS, operating an aircraft on an IFR flight plan within controlled airspace without authorization from ATC. By the way, ATC approval for a VFR departure is ATC authorization to operate your IFR aircraft in controlled airspace under visual flight rules until a specified time, location, or altitude at which ATC will give you an IFR clearance.

If you do cancel your IFR flight plan and decide to chance it and see if you can receive one in the air, ATC may be unable to accommodate you and as lilfssister said, be prepared to continue the whole way to destination VFR. In addition, by cancelling your original IFR flight plan, you will need to file a new IFR flight plan.
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Post by oldtimer » Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:12 pm

In the good old U.S.A., departing VFR and picking up your clearance once airborne is a way of life and has been for years. In Canada, it is simply a rule for the sake of having rules.
IMHO it would speed up departures from remote airport immensly with absolutly no degredation in safety.
Rules for the sake of rules.
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Post by Jerricho » Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:36 pm

Hi Splits,

I'll echo what has been said so far regarding your question regarding protected airspace having been issued with holding instructions (I can only really speak from a radar environment, as that procedural crap is whiteman's magic). The clearance has been given, the airspace is yours.

Regarding a parallel entry, all turns are to be on the holding side. I would be interested to think why your mate is "f'ed in the head" ;)
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Post by ahramin » Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:11 pm

A lot of good points made here.

It might help to think of what happens when you depart an uncontrolled aerodrome on an IFR flight plan planning to enter controlled airspace later. You can call and get the clearance before you takeoff or you can get the clearance airborne. While i have occasionally had to wait a couple minutes (max) for the airborne clearance, i have never heard of anyone being denied the clearance.

So if it is good VFR i do not think that you would get denied a clearance just because you did not get it on the ground.

When i depart an uncontrolled aerodrome and get the clearance in the air i am not prepared to go all the way to destination vfr (and would have a serious problem if i did not get the clearance) but i am prepared to go 10-15 minutes vfr.

At the end of the day though, why not just get the vfr departure approved along with its implied promise that atc will get you the clearance once clear of traffic?
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Post by zzjayca » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:52 am

oldtimer wrote:In the good old U.S.A., departing VFR and picking up your clearance once airborne is a way of life and has been for years. In Canada, it is simply a rule for the sake of having rules.
IMHO it would speed up departures from remote airport immensly with absolutly no degredation in safety.
Rules for the sake of rules.
The reason it works in the USA is because of their frequency and radar coverage. Take one or both of these items away, and the separation standards available to the controller drops dramatically. In some situations, allowing an aircraft to depart VFR will make it extremely difficult to get the aircraft it's IFR clearance.

ahramin wrote: It might help to think of what happens when you depart an uncontrolled aerodrome on an IFR flight plan planning to enter controlled airspace later. You can call and get the clearance before you takeoff or you can get the clearance airborne. While i have occasionally had to wait a couple minutes (max) for the airborne clearance, i have never heard of anyone being denied the clearance.

When i depart an uncontrolled aerodrome and get the clearance in the air i am not prepared to go all the way to destination vfr (and would have a serious problem if i did not get the clearance) but i am prepared to go 10-15 minutes vfr.
I agree.

We are talking about two different things. If the aerodrome is uncontrolled, (chart is green in colour) then no clearance is needed to depart the aerodrome. In fact, since you are not in controlled airspace, you can depart in IFR weather. However, before entering controlled airspace, you do need an ATC clearance.

Again, if the aerodrome is controlled, (chart is white in colour) then as soon as you are airborne, you are in controlled airspace. Hence, the need for a clearance before you depart.
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Post by split s » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:42 pm

Neither YNE or YRL are controlled unless it is IFR in the zone!
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Post by zzjayca » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:27 pm

split s wrote:Neither YNE or YRL are controlled unless it is IFR in the zone!
Wow!! You mean if an IFR aircraft is VMC I don't have to provide separation? If I ever have an OI (loss of separation) I'll make sure to check the flight conditions. Maybe I won't be at fault.

All IFR aircraft within controlled airspace are separated by ATC. VMC or IMC makes no difference. Since ATC is responsible for separation, all IFR aircraft need ATC authorization to enter controlled airspace.

As for CYNE or CYRL not being controlled, do you need an approach clearance to land at these airports? I think even you can answer that question.
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Post by split s » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:10 pm

[quote="zzjayca"]
Wow!! You mean if an IFR aircraft is VMC I don't have to provide separation? If I ever have an OI (loss of separation) I'll make sure to check the flight conditions. Maybe I won't be at fault.

All IFR aircraft within controlled airspace are separated by ATC. VMC or IMC makes no difference. Since ATC is responsible for separation, all IFR aircraft need ATC authorization to enter controlled airspace.

As for CYNE or CYRL not being controlled, do you need an approach clearance to land at these airports? I think even you can answer that question.[/quote]


Ok smart ass, they are controlled to IFR traffic and vfr traffic if it is IFR. The original question was about departing VFR in VMC conditions from these aerodromes(which I can fly VFR in and out of all day without a clearence) and then grab an IFR clearence airborn.
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Post by zzjayca » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:24 pm

split s wrote:Ok smart ass, they are controlled to IFR traffic and vfr traffic if it is IFR. The original question was about departing VFR in VMC conditions from these aerodromes(which I can fly VFR in and out of all day without a clearence) and then grab an IFR clearence airborn.
Let's deal with this in two parts:

1) "they are controlled to IFR traffic and vfr traffic if it is IFR"

What the hell is a VFR a/c doing flying in this area when it's IFR?

2) "The original question was about departing VFR in VMC conditions from these aerodromes(which I can fly VFR in and out of all day without a clearance) and then grab an IFR clearance airborne"

You seem to be confusing "airport control service" with a controlled aerodrome. They are two different things:

Airport control service basically means there is a tower at the aerodrome. Hence, both IFR and VFR a/c are under the "control" of ATC when operating in the vicinity of the aerodrome.

An aerodrome that doesn't have "airport control service" simply means an aerodrome that doesn't have a tower. Nothing more nothing less. This has no bearing on whether the aerodrome is controlled from an IFR a/c's point of view.

Remember there are many classifications of controlled airspace. Likely, the airspace you are dealing with in CYNE and CYRL is class E. This means a/c on a VFR flight plan may come and go as they please. (From an ATC perspective). However, since class E airspace is "controlled" for a/c on an IFR flight plan, any a/c on an IFR flight plan must receive authorization from ATC before entering the airspace. Simply put, no a/c on an IFR flight plan can land or take-off from these aerodromes without ATC authorization.

As I mentioned in a previous post, ATC authorization may be approval for a VFR departure (remember you are still on an IFR flight plan) or it may be your IFR clearance.
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Post by split s » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:47 pm

zzjayca,
1. A little thing called "special VFR"

2. If an IFR flight plan or itnerary is filed, is that a/c now automatically an IFR aircraft, I was under the impression that you had to request and recieve a clearence before you would be concidered IFR.
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Post by charlie_g » Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:04 am

split s wrote:zzjayca,
1. A little thing called "special VFR"

2. If an IFR flight plan or itnerary is filed, is that a/c now automatically an IFR aircraft, I was under the impression that you had to request and recieve a clearence before you would be concidered IFR.
I'm not sure what the reference to SVFR is about in this context, however.... FSS must request special vfr authorization from the IFR controller, and if the SVFR is authorized, the SVFR aircraft will get IFR separation from any other IFR traffic in the area. Technically speaking towers must also request SVFR permission from the centre, although in practice this is often covered by agreements between the two agencies and no permission is sought.

Point number 2 is a common mistake/misinterpretation made by American pilots. An IFR flight plan or itinerary does not in any way constitute an IFR clearance. It simply means your flight plan is on file and will be available to the controller at the time that you request clearance (provided you didn't file the plan 5 mins before making the request).
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