Do your job!!

This forum has been developed to discuss ATS related topics.

Moderators: North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako

Post Reply
BackToTheFuture
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:18 am

Do your job!!

Post by BackToTheFuture »

Rant:

Controllers are human beings. They make mistakes. Yes, let’s get that out of the way.

I had flight very recently and a few of the controllers, not all, were completely asleep, causing us to level out MULTIPLE times during the climb AND descent by two different centres.

Yes, I’ve been flying for years and this isn’t new. But what I experienced on this flight was utterly disgraceful.

Initial climb cleared to FL230, our Boeing started levelling out approximately 2000 feet before this. I was PF (pilot flying) and asked the Captain (to ask atc) for higher. So he does. The controller says he was “working on it.” Minutes go by. We’re sitting level at 230, with NO ONE else around or even on the frequency! It was just us and we had to level out! I literally think the current controller couldn’t get a hold of the next guy. (No clue what was going on down there).

Then, when we switch to the next guy, the same thing happened! Relatively short flight, only in cruise for about 10 minutes. Ask for lower and he mumbles something nearly incoherent. Then after a few minutes switches us, meanwhile during this time, our descent profile is now fkd for the entire descent because we’ve now lost the profile.

For those controllers that don’t understand why holding us up makes us angry, it’s because our entire descent is calculated in the computer to be as efficient as possible. The computer plans an “idle thrust” descent or as close as possible. When we ask for descent, we need it. Yes, we try to ask slightly ahead of time. The computer tells us about 15NM back from TOD.

When you hold up a large jet, you actually cause it to burn more fuel. We have to aggressively use speed brakes to get back on the profile (or increase IAS manually - if possible). To be held up for traffic, fine. But to be held up when there’s no other traffic around and the controller was simply not paying attention, multiple times on the same flight, it’s inexcusable!

Some controllers are good. And are always on top of this and they get it. So, if that’s you, thank you! They know a large jet needs to descend (and climb) on profile, especially descend. But some CLEARLY do not get this! Wake up! Pay attention! You have one airplane in your airspace. Stay ahead of it! That’s what you get paid to do! Hand them off before they have to prompt you!

Just remember, when you hold up a jet in descent, you’ve caused it to burn more gas. Plain and simple. Ask any other large jet pilot.

You make our job harder by being lazy. You just don’t get it. If you were in the jumpseat and could see for yourself what this causes on our end, you’d never see your job the same way again. It’s difficult to slow or descend a large jet down once it’s ABOVE the profile or “path” in descent.

If you’re holding us up for valid reasons, whatever. This is addressing controllers holding up large jets for no reason other than not paying attention. And knowing that it’s the next sector that issues the descent. Stay ahead of us and switch us over!

Or, if you clear us to say “14,000” and we’re approaching it and it’s still you that’s clearing us lower, don’t make us level out for no reason. Controllers don’t understand how much fuel is wasted because of this.
---------- ADS -----------
 
doiwannabeapilot
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:46 pm

Re: Do your job!!

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

You seriously don't think they know that ?

Ask any other large jet pilot ?
Do small jet pilots not know a non-idle thrust setting burns more than idle thrust ?

I bet you wear your pilot hat in your hotel room and in the car to the airport.

--------------------------------------------

Just remember, when you hold up a jet in descent, you’ve caused it to burn more gas. Plain and simple. Ask any other large jet pilot.
---------- ADS -----------
 
PostmasterGeneral
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 516
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:50 pm

Re: Do your job!!

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

doiwannabeapilot wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:25 am You seriously don't think they know that ?

Ask any other large jet pilot ?
Do small jet pilots not know a non-idle thrust setting burns more than idle thrust ?

I bet you wear your pilot hat in your hotel room and in the car to the airport.

--------------------------------------------

Just remember, when you hold up a jet in descent, you’ve caused it to burn more gas. Plain and simple. Ask any other large jet pilot.
Exactly what I pictured :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
yhz41
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:34 pm
Location: Windy Hell

Re: Do your job!!

Post by yhz41 »

This is the biggest first world problem I have ever seen.
---------- ADS -----------
 
nvcatc
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:37 pm

Re: Do your job!!

Post by nvcatc »

Enroute controller here. Just to get it out of the way - we all know you guys don't want an interrupted climb or descent, and most people will do their best to keep you climbing when you're coming off the ground or give "when ready, descend ___" before you get to your top of descent. Of course, none of us are perfect, mistakes get made, other things come up, etc etc.

I don't know what happened on the ATC side for your specific flight, but it sounds to me like FL230 on your climb out might have been the top altitude of that controller's airspace, and they were either waiting for another controller to take the handoff to keep you climbing or were waiting for a point out to be accepted so they could climb you into another controller's airspace. Without the next controller accepting either of those things, we can't climb you into their airspace. And the next controller may have been too busy working on something else to respond to the handoff or check to see if they could accept the point out. This scenario happens to me all the time, and it makes me itchy because I want to keep you going too - but not enough to have a loss of separation over it.

Don't really have enough info on the descent side to know if it was laziness or something else. Again, could be you were already at the bottom of that controller's airspace and they needed the next controller to do something before giving you further descent. Could be they were lazy.

Another thing to keep in mind is that under normal circumstances, when we have a position change over, the new controller just comes and sits in the same position as the controller that's getting a break. Everything is already set up, you just have to plug in, get the picture, and continue on. Right now when we switch over, the incoming controller has to open a new (disinfected) position to take over from the previous controller. So they have to change the settings on the radar screen, they need to load the strips, they need to move over all the frequencies, etc. So it's possible all this happened during a change over and while you didn't hear the controller being busy on the frequency, they were busy behind the scenes. There also could have been another issue behind the scenes that was keeping them busy while not talking to any planes. I'm on hotlines all the time talking to neighbouring sectors - especially with the US because we have to talk to each other for each plane that gets handed off. But back to the position change over, in an effort to save time (and the frequencies often not being that busy) we don't always couple the different frequencies we're working. I could be working 6 different frequencies and normally they're coupled so that everyone hears every transmission on each of the frequencies and prevents people stepping on each other, but when there are fewer planes, not everyone is coupling their frequencies all the time. So it's possible that there were transmissions going on on other frequencies that controller was working, you just couldn't hear it. If this was the case, you probably would hear just the controller and not the other responding pilot, but there are ways around it.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue that you weren't dealing with lazy controllers - it's definitely possible. But be aware that just because you don't hear transmissions, doesn't mean the controller isn't busy, and doesn't mean the controller isn't trying to get you where you need to go.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Blackdog0301
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:15 pm

Re: Do your job!!

Post by Blackdog0301 »

You joined the forums just so you could post this? :rolleyes:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Eric Janson
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:44 am

Re: Do your job!!

Post by Eric Janson »

I just want to thank everyone who coordinated direct NAGNO from the Yukon/Alaska border - longest direct I've ever had.

Nice to be flying over Canada again - not something I normally do.

Saddens me how little traffic there is - 2 opposite direction aircraft between the Alaska border and Montreal.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
Air.Field
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:52 am

Re: Do your job!!

Post by Air.Field »

Maybe the OP should be thankful to have a job right now. Plenty of us would take an off profile right now to be back in the air :roll:
---------- ADS -----------
 
DanWEC
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1682
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: Do your job!!

Post by DanWEC »

Imagine if some controllers were so entitled and ego-centric that they ranted on even a fraction of things pilots did? This forum would need a server the size of Deep Blue.

Who knows what was going on in the background or who they were on the phone with.

I once had some questions about approaches into YUL. We get step descent clearances and lower often comes juuuuust in time, or during a level off if someone's talking. I private messaged a controller on here out of curiosity and he took the time to give me an excellent, detailed answer with the bottleneck of clearing times off the runways in YUL (The exits aren't in optimized positions) and he broke down how that end up all the way up out the sectors.

Might want to try a more diplomatic approach instead of assuming others aren't as much as a sky god as you.

Good job mansplaining Idle descent though, to someone who makes twice as much money as you and has one of the most stressful jobs in existence.
---------- ADS -----------
 
GoHomeLeg
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 67
Joined: Fri May 10, 2019 9:13 am

Re: Do your job!!

Post by GoHomeLeg »

BackToTheFuture wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:51 am Rant:

Controllers are human beings. They make mistakes. Yes, let’s get that out of the way.

I had flight very recently and a few of the controllers, not all, were completely asleep, causing us to level out MULTIPLE times during the climb AND descent by two different centres.

Yes, I’ve been flying for years and this isn’t new. But what I experienced on this flight was utterly disgraceful.

Initial climb cleared to FL230, our Boeing started levelling out approximately 2000 feet before this. I was PF (pilot flying) and asked the Captain (to ask atc) for higher. So he does. The controller says he was “working on it.” Minutes go by. We’re sitting level at 230, with NO ONE else around or even on the frequency! It was just us and we had to level out! I literally think the current controller couldn’t get a hold of the next guy. (No clue what was going on down there).

Then, when we switch to the next guy, the same thing happened! Relatively short flight, only in cruise for about 10 minutes. Ask for lower and he mumbles something nearly incoherent. Then after a few minutes switches us, meanwhile during this time, our descent profile is now fkd for the entire descent because we’ve now lost the profile.

For those controllers that don’t understand why holding us up makes us angry, it’s because our entire descent is calculated in the computer to be as efficient as possible. The computer plans an “idle thrust” descent or as close as possible. When we ask for descent, we need it. Yes, we try to ask slightly ahead of time. The computer tells us about 15NM back from TOD.

When you hold up a large jet, you actually cause it to burn more fuel. We have to aggressively use speed brakes to get back on the profile (or increase IAS manually - if possible). To be held up for traffic, fine. But to be held up when there’s no other traffic around and the controller was simply not paying attention, multiple times on the same flight, it’s inexcusable!

Some controllers are good. And are always on top of this and they get it. So, if that’s you, thank you! They know a large jet needs to descend (and climb) on profile, especially descend. But some CLEARLY do not get this! Wake up! Pay attention! You have one airplane in your airspace. Stay ahead of it! That’s what you get paid to do! Hand them off before they have to prompt you!

Just remember, when you hold up a jet in descent, you’ve caused it to burn more gas. Plain and simple. Ask any other large jet pilot.

You make our job harder by being lazy. You just don’t get it. If you were in the jumpseat and could see for yourself what this causes on our end, you’d never see your job the same way again. It’s difficult to slow or descend a large jet down once it’s ABOVE the profile or “path” in descent.

If you’re holding us up for valid reasons, whatever. This is addressing controllers holding up large jets for no reason other than not paying attention. And knowing that it’s the next sector that issues the descent. Stay ahead of us and switch us over!

Or, if you clear us to say “14,000” and we’re approaching it and it’s still you that’s clearing us lower, don’t make us level out for no reason. Controllers don’t understand how much fuel is wasted because of this.
Pilot here. You must be a joy to fly with. Holy shit you're angry. Like one commenter said, if ATC ranted every time pilots did stupid shit, it would be 1000 forum pages long.
---------- ADS -----------
 
northernpilot2
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:20 am

Re: Do your job!!

Post by northernpilot2 »

BackToTheFuture wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:51 am Rant:

BackToTheFuture -- do your job - FLY.
---------- ADS -----------
 
dashtrash1
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Do your job!!

Post by dashtrash1 »

:lol: :lol:
---------- ADS -----------
 
J31
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1075
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 7:21 am

Re: Do your job!!

Post by J31 »

Man, some of you guys are nasty! :lol: I do not think BackToTheFuture will be back in the future.

BackToTheFuture you need to relax a bit and enjoy life, I am sure the controllers are not lazy or trying to "Piss you off".
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “ATS Question Forum”