Thanks for nothing, Winnipeg Terminal

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jazzy_jet
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Thanks for nothing, Winnipeg Terminal

#1 Post by jazzy_jet » Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:58 pm

Well done Winnipeg Terminal. This afternoon just after mid-day I experienced the worst controlling I have ever experienced in my career. Could somebody please tell the individual that was on arrival at the time that aircraft cannot slow down AND go down at the same time. AND THEN to really add insult,be told to speed up again. I am ready to take whatever shit I will get here for it but those involved know just how bad it was.
If the guy in the seat was training then they should be made very aware of this fact and needs to brush up on how an aircraft performs. If it wasn't a trainee then hang your head in shame.
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flyinhigh
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#2 Post by flyinhigh » Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:15 pm

Just to be a smart ass,

What kind of airplane are you flying?
My plane will slow down in a decent, we just put it in flight idle and weeee, we slow right down. :D just kiddin

On there behalf, when they say slow down, it doesn't mean get there now, pull your power back and raise the nose a couple degrees and you should slow to requested soon enough. usually ywg guys are pretty good, I personally have not had a problem going into winnipeg myself so.

hope your day is better.
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FamilyGuy
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#3 Post by FamilyGuy » Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:23 pm

Just to be the devils advocate, but if you can't do what they ask, what are you supposed to do???

I'm sure if you told them you couldn't do it, they would have gladly pulled you out of the mix and gave you all kinds of time and space to sort it out.
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ahramin
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#4 Post by ahramin » Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:33 pm

This forum is not here for every anonymous driver with a bone to pick to come and slam YWG center. It is here for ats related discussion. If you have a problem phone the center and discuss it with the shift manager who was in charge at the time.

To our atc folks on here, feel free to ignore this post.
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#5 Post by gr8gazu » Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:48 pm

Jazzy jet,

Please say again, your previous transmission was a garbbled bag of crap!

You are acting as though you were asked to alter the molecular structure of your craft.

Just do your best to comply and if you can't just notify the controller accordingly.
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#6 Post by Jerricho » Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:55 am

Mr Jet,

Sit down. Put your feet up.

Obviously you feel very stongly about whatever situation you feel you encountered that lead to you, allbeit anonymously and far from constructively, reacting like this.

From your username, would be a safe guess that you're a Jazz driver? Perhaps if you gave us a little more information as to why you feel this way.
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727driver
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#7 Post by 727driver » Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:18 pm

speed brakes........
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jazzy_jet
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#8 Post by jazzy_jet » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:15 am

Jericho said "and far from constructively"
Well I have cooled down a little since my first post, but the comments stand. On first contact to be instructed to reduce speed then the very next transmission is telling me to expedite is not good controlling.Then to be told to speed up again a couple of minutes later was the icing ont he cake.Very poor IMO.The frequency was not busy yet the controller sounded like he was making it so.I know this sounds like a slamfest but it really was appalling and perhaps I should have called the centre.Was it a trainee?
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#9 Post by Zatopec » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:27 am

You said it yourself, call center for answers. It's usually not a problem to get a answer from these guys.
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#10 Post by charlie_g » Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:33 am

Zatopec wrote:You said it yourself, call center for answers. It's usually not a problem to get a answer from these guys.
WG shift manager: (204) 983-8338.
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#11 Post by IFRATC » Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:22 am

Jazzy_jet
First off, I don't understand what qualification you personally have to determine the quality of controlling. That being said, where I work, Speed control is used every time in YYZ. Not only may you get reduced in speed but also get vectored for the sequence, decent, and increased in IAS again to fill gaps in sequencing...GIDDY UP. If you can't multi-task then you shouldn't be flying that type.
Here is a simple example. Three aircraft going towards the same arrival bedpost. Currently YOU are number one BASED ON DISTANCE FROM THE BEDPOST AT THAT TIME. Number 2 aircraft is approaching from a different angle to the bedpost, therefore getting better winds and increased G/S. You are told to reduce by 20 kts. for spacing and decent (To get into thicker air, thus further reducing G/S over the distance). Meanwhile number 2 is told to increase 300kts or better for sequencing. Number 3 is told to maintain current speed and begin decent as well. Thus not to lose spacing with you. You then in turn get a short vector as well for in trail spacing. Once the required is acheived a turn towards the bedpost is intiated AND AN INCREASE IN SPEED TO MATCH THE AIRCRAFT AHEAD, so that number 3 doesn't chew up your butt.
This is a very simple example. Put 6 or 7 arrivals coming from different angles and lots of speed changes and headings are initiated to acheive the required in trail sequencing. This is done every single minute of the day. I don't understand your problem with YWG terminal. Yes it is harder to reduce speed once you initiate decent, but it is necessary at times. Heaven forbid that you may have to turn while doing this as well!!! I would hate to hear your comments then.
Lets not even talk about departure then. Have you never been speed restricted in the climb, and then told to accelerate? Your post is nonesense!!

IFRATC
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#12 Post by jazzy_jet » Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:06 am

One question for you Ifratc. Do you think it acceptable to instruct an aircraft to reduce speed AND tell them to expedite their decent. Not descend, EXPEDITE with no reason given. The frequency wasn't busy, perhaps 3 or four arrivals so not what I wold call heavy traffic environment. And we are talking about Winnipeg not Toronto where every mile counts for everybody else.
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#13 Post by IFRATC » Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:02 am

When implied this way, my simple answer is NO IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. If I needed two things from your aircraft such as an expeditious decent through a certain altitude and a reduction in speed, my answer is this.
"JZA#$&^ maintian FL240 expedite through FL270 slow to 250kts. when able". I personally would never issue a speed reduction and then tell an aircraft to expedite decent.
I must have misunderstood your original post. In this specific example I agree with you. Hope that helps. Remember though, we all make mistakes. It is up to us WORKING TOGETHER, to keep it safe.

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#14 Post by Jerricho » Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:37 pm

As a further to IFRATC's post, IMHO a reason should be given when issuing an "expedite" instruction (traffic info etc). The school-boy error of "go down and slow down" perhaps shows somewhat a lack of understanding of aircraft performance.

I haven't heard anything about a driver calling into the centre about this, so I'm guessing you didn't do anything further about it. Was there anything else that made you feel you had to come on here and vent in this manner?

(Christ, I feel I sound like a therapist ;) )
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#15 Post by Pygmie » Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:33 pm

Why would he call in? He doesn't want to do the professional thing and try to follow-up on it and maybe make the system work better for himself and everyone else, he just wants to bitch about it like a child on an anonymous internet forum.
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#16 Post by Doc » Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:40 pm

Hey Jerricho...how they hangiing man? Was really tempted to say "HI" to you the other day departing the 'peg.....but then some of your buddies would know who I am and place me in a hold till a week Tuesday...LOL!
I've just given up bitching about vectors etc, here....just gets everybody pissed off. Too many take it as a personal attack on their manhood. However, I did get this really silly vector the other day in YQT...but not from you, and I'm just wondering...........cheers!
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#17 Post by Jerricho » Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:40 pm

Hey there Doc.

Feel free to say Hi any time ;)

As to YQT, I haven't started my training there.......yet. I take it you all out there know that YXE and YQT are all going to be combined into the "Winnipeg Terminal" speciality.

See if you told me 3 years ago I would have been working airspace in Saskatoon, I would have laughed and asked "Where the f*ck is that!!?!?"
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#18 Post by squibbler » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:57 pm

See if you told me 3 years ago I would have been working airspace in Saskatoon, I would have laughed and asked "Where the f*ck is that!!?!?"
I asked the same thing when they offered me the job at Thunder Bay :lol:

Still, I'm here now. No complaints about "the English guy" yet....there's still time!
Hey Jerricho, how's it hanging? See you've not started on YQT yet. Now that will be fun. 6 in the circuit last night.....the UK it ain't!!!! :shock:
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