ATC/Pilot misunderstandings

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Thu May 04, 2006 6:48 pm

One thing I am quickly realizing from my experience working for airlines as a rampie/fueler, a commercial low time pilot, working operations for a defunct airline (JetsGo) and now ATC trainee is the following:

Most ATC don't really know very much about airline ops/regs and requirements, and what goes on in the cockpit, aircraft/company limitations etc.

Now they/we i guess, know enough to provide safe control, but in some instances through personal discussions I find some informational sessions would benefit controllers greatly.

As for pilots, well speaking as one going into the ATC bit, and from speaking to high time 37 drivers, pilots know little about ATC, I think if they really had a grasp of how it all works the two would truly benefit!

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Thu May 04, 2006 11:37 pm

There was a program generated to aid this small issue called the Fam Flight program....

Talk to your management about where that went

The towers and ACC's are always open to pilots wanting a tour to see how life is on the other side.......where is the emoticon for a tumbleweed rolling across the page........all those layovers and too busy I guess

Pygmie · Post by **Pygmie** » Thu May 04, 2006 11:55 pm

As I understand it, massive overreaction to 9/11 killed the Fam Flights for controllers. (Although we still have them, just no more riding up front. . .)

YYZ Tower · Post by **YYZ Tower** » Fri May 05, 2006 6:47 am

Although we still have them, just no more riding up front. . .

The main idea of fam flight was to gain experience of the flight deck environment and pilot/controller interaction. Not much "fam-ing" going on down the back is there?

I guess we still get the ATC visit at the other end though.

bigfssguy · Post by **bigfssguy** » Fri May 05, 2006 2:54 pm

All FSS are open to the public. If a pilot wants to come up to the tower in Churchill everyone here is game for it. Just phone and ask if you can come over. Most FSS will say sure, hell most encourage it i do with my pilot buddies. Then they realize that wow "you do a lot more than talk on the radio" ....well du-uh, kinda like saying pilots only yank the steering wheel around. It's always good to see how the other half lives, i've always said.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri May 05, 2006 3:07 pm

Nice....a "fam flight" from seat 33D....Oh Goody!!!
Kind of like, a tour of the tower.....from the parking lot!!

Jerricho · Post by **Jerricho** » Fri May 05, 2006 3:17 pm

One of these days Doc, I'm gonna hit you up for a fam-flight mate. Never been in a King-air.

CD · Post by CD » Fri May 05, 2006 4:59 pm

bigfssguy wrote:All FSS are open to the public. If a pilot wants to come up to the tower in Churchill everyone here is game for it. Just phone and ask if you can come over. Most FSS will say sure, hell most encourage it i do with my pilot buddies. Then they realize that wow "you do a lot more than talk on the radio" ....well du-uh, kinda like saying pilots only yank the steering wheel around. It's always good to see how the other half lives, i've always said.

Something similar used to happen in YTH... crews were encouraged to visit and spend time at both facilities. There were also gatherings arranged 2 or 3 times a year to get as many of the local pilots and specialists together to discuss common issues and beefs. Don't know if it still happens but alot of frustrations were talked out at those events.

Crews in YWG were also encouraged to visit both the tower and centre and I recall several tours being arranged as well.

FamilyGuy · Post by **FamilyGuy** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:10 pm

Yes there was an initial reaction and need to limit flightdeck visits immediately after 9/11....which was a long time ago already.

However, ATC's have as high if not a higher security clearence than most airline flight crews! I understand from some sources that the flight decks are no longer restricted to just essential flight crew, the jump seat can be occupied by even flight attendants dead-heading home. Now I can understand wanting to very carefully control who is allowed up front, but surely if they go up front before the plane departs and stay behind the locked and re-inforced door, that isn't any worse than the stewardess!!!

Seems to me that "somebody" just isn't trying very hard in the misplaced hope that this would completely kill the program...which it didn't....so what's the hold up??? (pardon the slight unintended pun)

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:10 pm

Jerricho....if we're ever in the right place, at the right time, you'd be more than welcome!!

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:21 pm

I'd have to look it up, and I'm far, far away from the manuals right now, but pretty sure ANY visit to an FSS or ATC facility must be approved by the Manager now?

I know must of us are pretty open to visits, but by the letter of the law spontaneous visits are no longer allowed.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri May 05, 2006 6:26 pm

Typical knee-jerk reaction from 9/11. Like a licenced Canadian pilot is a real threat to a ATC facility...give me a break! Same goes for a licenced controller on a flight deck. This country is tripping over itself in the name of stupid!

Jerricho · Post by **Jerricho** » Fri May 05, 2006 6:36 pm

It's not just this country mate, it's world wide.

Part of ATC training in Blight was a couple of days famil with British Airways, and proper Fam Flights up front were the norm. Thanks to some asshats, no more.

Stupid thing is, days after 9/11 my wife and I flew out of Sydney returning to London and we were initially invited up the front until it was decided it wasn't a good idea. Oh well, them lie down beds in Business do suck.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Sat May 06, 2006 6:27 am

I think controllers, and pilots if they use should petition Transport to get those rules changed regarding Controllers in the cockpit.

It would increase the Safe Expeditious Flow of traffic!

CD · Post by CD » Sat May 06, 2006 7:52 am

av8rpei wrote:I think controllers, and pilots if they use should petition Transport to get those rules changed regarding Controllers in the cockpit.

Why don't you propose the change yourself instead? Anyone can recommend a change to the regulations. Here's the process:

Requests for Regulatory Action

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Sun May 07, 2006 5:21 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that the restriction has nothing to do with Transport. It was simply a knee jerk reaction on the part of the insurance companies the operators or both. Nav Canada probably hasn't been active enough to have the restrictions lifted and that is why the program hasn't been reinstated.

I was flying into my old training airport YOW with westjet out of YWG and had my ID/ATC licence with me. I thought it'd be neat to see what the airport looks like from a real plane, so before I departed I asked the lady at the desk if the cockpit was still hands off. She said that company policy is that it is up to the Captain whether or not I could ride up front now. So I asked the "Flight Attendant" who was some pimple popping annoying punk kid who liked the sound of his own voice and his anal authority, and he refused to ask the Captain. I didn't bother to try since then but from what the lady at the desk told me its at the Captain's discretion at Westjet.

Pygmie · Post by **Pygmie** » Sun May 07, 2006 7:07 pm

justplanecrazy wrote: ... and that is why the program hasn't been reinstated.

Oh, the program still exists. The only difference now is it's treated more like a free flight on the company's dime.

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Sun May 07, 2006 7:13 pm

The program still exists but only to encourage familiarization with other units procedures and to keep ATC units on the same page. The purpose of the trip is still to visit another ATC unit. Unfortunately the flight between units is no longer used to keep pilots/ATC on the same page and we are simply passengers now.