YWG Cancel IFR - Keep alerting services open

lowlevel · Post by **lowlevel** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:23 pm

A question for the YWG boys and girls.
Why is it when ever I am in the decent and have the a/d in sight and I want to cancel my IFR (not close out my IFR), I always get asked if I want to keep the alerting services open. It bugs the hell out of me and seems like useless chatter, that doesn't have to be there. I flew in AB for years, never got asked once whenever I cancelled, come to SK and get asked everytime (by centre and FSS). Anyone in Winnipeg know the reasoning to this?

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:03 pm

Because the Bible (MANOPS) tells us that is the way to do it?

Jerricho · Post by **Jerricho** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:21 pm

Lowlevel, check your PMs.

Pygmie · Post by **Pygmie** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:27 pm

The reason behind this is that 95% of the aircraft that cancel IFR (at least in my experience) in Sask and Manitoba do not want their ATS alerting services kept open since they have that service taken care of by their company. Most pilots do not want to have to call into FSS/flight planning to close their flight plan on the ground, when they can just cancel in the air.

The question is also there since there have been cases in the past of non-Canadian pilots cancelling IFR and thinking that also means they're alerting services are closed as well, then never calling on the ground to close out the alerting.

Also, lilfssister is right, MANOPS directs us to ask if they want to cancel their flight plan as well.

tofo · Post by **tofo** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:20 pm

My question is why when I call n 800 number and get an edmonton controller are they lost as to class d advisory.

Come to think of it I never did file class d's in edmonton

I think I always filed a flightr plan in van city, and cow town but I'd be interested to no if they have these calss d's.

kevenv · Post by **kevenv** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:53 am

I doubt that when you call the 800 number you get a controller. More than likely it is the back room people that handle all the IFR flightplans. They are not ATC.

FREEFALL · Post by **FREEFALL** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:19 pm

If you say "cancelling IFR" without saying "proceeding compay note", keeping IFR alerting is what you are doing. And that is why you are asked.

Stating "cancelling IFR proceeding company note" is the same as stating "closing IFR".

FREEFALL · Post by **FREEFALL** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:51 pm

cpl_atc wrote:
FREEFALL wrote:If you say "cancelling IFR" without saying "proceeding compay note", keeping IFR alerting is what you are doing. And that is why you are asked.

Stating "cancelling IFR proceeding company note" is the same as stating "closing IFR".
I disagree. Most controllers will still ask about the alerting if you simply say "closing IFR". We don't want to inadvertently terminate the alerting, and will usually require that it be stated explicitly. Last thing you want is someone piling it in somewhere only to find out that the alerting was terminated prematurely/accidentally.

Read AIM RAC 3.12 and tell me what you think. The way I interpret it is the way I expressed it above.

I do realize it can be interpreted in different ways. I would like to see if there are other interpretations out there.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publi ... 1/menu.htm

kevenv · Post by **kevenv** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:24 am

We often see "canceling IFR can you close my flight plan" which according to the AIM article above is pretty clear. If it is a local pilot that I deal with a lot or a Cdn carrier, nothing further is said other than an acknowledgment of the cancellation and telling the pilot his flight plan is closed. If however the a/c is of foreign registry or one I am not familiar with I will do the above plus add "alerting service is terminated". I would hate to inadvertently close a flight plan and have something happen.

ywgatc · Post by **ywgatc** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:29 am

In our airspace we get lots of both. For us it depends, from what I've noticed, primarily on what company it is. Some of the companies say "cancelling IFR, proceeding on a company note". Pretty self explanatory. Others say, "cancelling IFR, but would like to leave the alerting services open". In which case the bible says we are to say "Roger, an arrival report is required after landing" Not all say that though.

Because we get both, if an aircraft just says "cancelling IFR", we must determine if he/she is also closing their IFR flight plan. This is also a requirement of MANOPS.

Again though, if the pilot says "close our IFR flight plan", I personally never question that, and I advise them that ATS alerting services are terminated.

thatdaveguy · Post by **thatdaveguy** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:05 pm

In FSS MANOPS we have to ask to make it clear:

"ABC we're thru 12,5 we'll cancel the IFR"
"Roger, are you also closing your IFR FP?"
"Affirmative, company note"
"Roger, IFR alerting service terminated." <--- We have to use that phrase to make it clear you are no longer receiving alerting.

"ABC we'll cancel IFR proceed company note"
"Roger, IFR alerting service terminated"

Just a liability cover my ass procedure.