Flight "Service"??

[FamilyGuy]

To be clear - a Lear 120 out and asking for the WX on the MF - not critical....yet. If denied on the MF another freq should be given and preferably a reason. However, that Lear 120 out may be bingo fuel and needing to make an alternate decision..as in now. The weather becomes pretty fucking important at that point.

I have to admit I have an unhidden agenda to my rant. Back when I was a pup FSS was there for the WX first and foremost. NOTAM breifings in person came second. Except for once at a small Alberta airport most were always professional and helpful. Now I'm sensing a slide towards pretend ATC...making sure a snow plow is off the runway at an uncontrolled airport. You know the pilot is responsible to make sure the runway is clear at uncontrolled airports right? That may be what you are told to do...but that don't make it right.

Unless you are legally allowed (and responsible) to say the magic phrase "cleared to land", I'm sorry but the "advisory" is right up there with refusing me the WX because VFR was not recommended. Everyone needs to know their place and ultimate responsibility in aviation or bad things happen quickly. FSS being misled into thinking they are anything other than a service to pilots is totally wrong IMHO.

Family Guy, why would you open your mouth without any knowledge of what you are talking about and show your ignorance. Really doesn't help when you try to make a point.

For the record, FSS (or pretend ATC, just like your pretend knowledge) have been tasked with providing Vehicle Control Service since after the YXC crash in 1978. Over 30 years now and you didn't know that?

Oh BTW, Transport Canada says we are legally allowed (and responsible) to control vehicles. No sorry, make that legally bound to control vehicles. Exact same vehicle control service from a control tower.

Local Flight Service Stations are no longer like the full service sites pre FIC. You the user allowed this to happen.

When denied weather, the FIC frequency will always be given.

Since we have a MANOPS which has to be followed to a "T", constant tape and over the shoulder monitoring, Nav Canada audits and Transport Canada audits every two years, I think we know our place in aviation. Maybe you should stop by for a visit.....

Read this line again "that may be what you are told to do but that don't make it right".

You can be legally bound to do vehicle safety inspections for all I care - you still can't say "Cleared to land" and you still are not responsible to make the decision whether landing on a particular runway is safe or not regardless of what you do with the snowplows. Tell me I'm wrong.

I know pretty well what the rules are and I think I have a pretty good idea where all this is sliding to....I actually don't begrudge any FSS types for wanting more - it's just that it has to be an above board open decision by all players - not just a company trying to cut costs and workers trying to protect their own. Then there needs to be training, licensing standards, communication of who can say what and when....

Ironically, I spoke with some IFR buds today who said they give out WX all the time on freq - metars, tafs, RCS's etc. So ATC can give out WX while being responsible for IFR separation but FSS has other more pressing duties? WTF indeed.

[lilfssister]

Read this line again "that may be what you are told to do but that don't make it right".

You can be legally bound to do vehicle safety inspections for all I care - you still can't say "Cleared to land" and you still are not responsible to make the decision whether landing on a particular runway is safe or not regardless of what you do with the snowplows. Tell me I'm wrong.

I know pretty well what the rules are and I think I have a pretty good idea where all this is sliding to....I actually don't begrudge any FSS types for wanting more - it's just that it has to be an above board open decision by all players - not just a company trying to cut costs and workers trying to protect their own. Then there needs to be training, licensing standards, communication of who can say what and when....

Ironically, I spoke with some IFR buds today who said they give out WX all the time on freq - metars, tafs, RCS's etc. So ATC can give out WX while being responsible for IFR separation but FSS has other more pressing duties? WTF indeed.

You do know that the duty FSS is not just making up the rules to make their lives easier? Most of us don't WANT more. Compensation has not kept pace with additional duties and responsibilities over the years.

We're doing what MANOPS, ATSAMM, MANOBS, CARS and our UOMs tell us to do. SO therefore, it IS right. We do have rules that say what we can say and when. We have training. And recurrent training. We have Operational skill and Communication skill proficiency reviews every six months. We have a KVT every year. We have OIIs. We're not just making things up to suit ourselves.

If we don't have ATIS we give out METAR, RSCs, etc. If we are busy (even though the one aspect (MF) pilots can hear may not sound busy) we send people to the FIC frequency so THEY CAN GET WHAT THEY WANT FASTER. Some of the information requested we DO NOT HAVE, so we send them to the FIC frequency.

I really don't know why some of you have such a hard time understanding this. A poster or two mentions a problem with a communication on occasion from the thousands FSS have daily, and the band wagon is overflowing.

[mattedfred]

respectfully,

i think the major complaint from the pilot is that navcanada has reduced our local FSS to a robot. we key the mic and are often responded to by what sounds like a robot at the other end instead of a living person. it's sad and unfortunate that navcanada has reduced you to this. you deserve better as your services can be extremely helpful. robots can't always meet my needs, especially when i don't have the owner's manual.

[lilfssister]

GN, you're correct of course. We really are up here because you're down there. Just one more example of "service" going the way of the dodo bird. That's not my job. That's your story, and you're welcome to stick to it. Just don't bother asking us to give you ceiling checks etc. It's not my job. I jest of course...but you do get it, no?

Oh, here's a good one one I missed earlier!

Yup, those PIREPs on arrival and departure are for FSS's benefit! We are really worried about icing and turbulence and ceiling height affecting us personally.

Good grief...

[Hammr Tyme]

Hey lilfssister, not to get off topic, but what is it with "the Leader of the application of the search function?" as your sig??

[lilfssister]

Somebody called an unspecified moderator a "thread nazi" for posting "view topic" links and then locking redundant threads.

[FamilyGuy]

ZZZ

[FamilyGuy]

DP

[FamilyGuy]

Now I'm sensing a slide towards pretend ATC...making sure a snow plow is off the runway at an uncontrolled airport. You know the pilot is responsible to make sure the runway is clear at uncontrolled airports right?

How is the pilot going to know if a vehicle is on the runway, when doing an approach to minimums, in half mile vis, and the vehicle at the other end of a mile long runway heading towards said pilot?

The airport may be uncontrolled, but the vehicles ARE controlled by the FSS.

Ah therein lies the rub.

How does the pilot know at any other airport not served by FSS or an FIC?

If it's busy enough to warrant snow removal AND have IFR service, then it deserves to be controlled. That should have been the recomendation out of YXC in 78. The actual reaction was all about $$$$

Here's a link to the transcript:

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cvr780211.htm

Alot more went wrong than just FSS not controlling vehicles.

[W0XOF]

Read this line again "that may be what you are told to do but that don't make it right".

You can be legally bound to do vehicle safety inspections for all I care - you still can't say "Cleared to land" and you still are not responsible to make the decision whether landing on a particular runway is safe or not regardless of what you do with the snowplows. Tell me I'm wrong.

Familyguy. You are wrong. If you think that for one minute that if you land on a runway with a vehicle on it and I hadn't asked you to overshoot that I wouldn't lose my job, your delusional. Even though the final responsibility is the pilots (just as at a controlled airport I might add) it is my job to ensure that the runway is safe to land on.

What don't you get about this?

"that may be what you are told to do but that don't make it right".

Just because that's what you think, doesn't make your statement true. Far from it. Like a little kid who covers their eyes to make something bad go away.

ATS operational duties/jobs (that includes FSS whether you want to believe it or not) are some of the most regulated in the Country. You think we make the job up as we go? If it's good enough for the Minister of Transport it should be good enough for you.

How would have putting a tower in YXC after the crash been the thing to do? No crashes since with the FSS there.

There always seems to be one like you in every forum. Pick any topic. Just like the 55 yr old man that you see on every beach during every vacation that wears the leopard print thong with the bad hair and George Hamilton tan.

You can think what you want. Must be little plane syndrome. Even Doc isn't backing you up.

[Doc]

Ironically, I spoke with some IFR buds today who said they give out WX all the time on freq - metars, tafs, RCS's etc. So ATC can give out WX while being responsible for IFR separation but FSS has other more pressing duties? WTF indeed.

So true. I can pick up my destination or alternate wx any time I ask right from center. Matter of fact, the guys at center will always offer to pass us the weather, RSC and whatever else we need prior to an approach clearance. But, can I get an FSS person (who probably was the guy who filed the weather in the first place) to give me weather at HIS station? I'm guessing, no.
Go ahead...jump all over me....I'm getting used to it. I just think it's wrong. Help me to understand, even if you do have a snow plow on the runway, unless you're driving the thing, how would that prevent you from passing along a request for YOUR current weather?

[grimey]

The magic words, btw, are "ABC Radio, GDEF, we're unable to raise the FIC on <FISE frequency>, request METAR and TAF for ABC". Same thing works for flight plans.

The rule is truly stupid, but FSS is only doing what they were told to. METARs and TAFs and flight plans are considered and en-route service, to be provided only by FICs. Expect non-FIC FSS to take a while filing a flight plan, though, as they've probably filed one in the last 5 years.

[thatdaveguy]

Ironically, I spoke with some IFR buds today who said they give out WX all the time on freq - metars, tafs, RCS's etc. So ATC can give out WX while being responsible for IFR separation but FSS has other more pressing duties? WTF indeed.

So true. I can pick up my destination or alternate wx any time I ask right from center. Matter of fact, the guys at center will always offer to pass us the weather, RSC and whatever else we need prior to an approach clearance. But, can I get an FSS person (who probably was the guy who filed the weather in the first place) to give me weather at HIS station? I'm guessing, no.
Go ahead...jump all over me....I'm getting used to it. I just think it's wrong. Help me to understand, even if you do have a snow plow on the runway, unless you're driving the thing, how would that prevent you from passing along a request for YOUR current weather?

What troubles me about your posts is you make them out to be personal insults to the people who are in flight service. I completely understand why you'd be frustrated with some of our policies as a company (there's some really stupid ones) but we're just here trying to do our jobs without breaking the rules everyday. I'm sorry that may mean you might be inconvenienced and have to hit 126.7 up for enroute weather, but there's SFA I can do about that.

I would LOVE if pilots got together and forced the company to change some of our policies, as it is dictated by lawyers and not common sense. Fact is, pilots aren't complaining, so why would the company improve anything?

[IFRATC]

Familyguy,
I work IFR. Don't know what FSS priorities of duties are. But...look back at your posts. You are being hypocritical. You are telling these FSS people that "thou shalt give the wx if requested". Well they are following proper protocal if they say "unable" and give you another frequency. 99% of the time, like ATC, we WILL bend over backwards to help or provide requested info. Your LEAR example is ridiculous......If a Lear pilot is requesting wx 120 miles out and is denied because of whatever proper reason...GO TO THE FIC. If the Lear in your example is bingo fuel then maybe he should fucking speak up and say "we are requesting wx. at destination and whatever alternate BECAUSE WE ARE LOW ON GAS"
That FSS will fucking drop WHATEVER THEY ARE DOING, jump through hula hoops, learn a new fucking language, cut their limbs off, etc to do WHATEVER THEY COULD TO ASSIST AN AIRCRAFT THAT MAY BE POTENTIALLY DISTRESSED.
I wish any of you ATS bashers could be anywhere near an ATS unit when a distressed aircraft is requesting assistance. Your disrespectful fucking bashing of true professionals would be retracted at the first sniff of your foot entering your egotistical mouthes. These people go to work day in, day out and do exactly what they are supposed to do without thank you. There satisfaction comes ONLY from performing there duties professionally and within the rules. They will continue to perform such duties even with the faint stench of your unknowlegeable critic of there jobs. Think about your senseless rants next you may require assistance. Or better yet tell an AWOS, see how much help you'll get.

IFRATC

[lilfssister]

IFRATC

[IFRATC]

To further add to my last post....
Here are some thoughts to ponder before making a moronic judgement about what you as pilots percieve to be shitty service. I am speaking specifically about this thread.

1. Maybe just maybe the FSS you so highly regard in this thread (sarcasam), was on a different MF giving a detailed icing report to one of your bretheren.
2. Maybe they were coordinating an IFR departure on another MF.
3. Holy shit they may have been in communication with RCC about a distressed aircraft.
4. Could have been talking to Centre relaying an IFR arrival so that the next guy in the stack could get his clearance.
5. How about providing a DF steer on another frequency to a lost VFR aircraft.

The list goes on. Even you would agree that these tasks take precident over giving out the latest METAR.
The FSS in question could have said "unable" without giving a reason because they were to busy dealing with a high priority task.
What are you pilots taught when it comes to priorities? AVIATE, NAVIGATE, then COMMUNICATE...
Your request may have been low priority.
Think about this next time you decide to post a rant and decide to shit on someone who may have for good reason told you "UNABLE". Here's a thought...Someone with professional integrity may have politely through this forum asked the REASON they were denied service BEFORE jumping to retarded conclusions and rants about someones job. I don't understand how time and time again on this forum anyone with 50 hrs. + thinks they know everything about the ATC and FSS occupation. It shines a light on those who are unprofessional and truly ignorant.

IFRATC

[thatdaveguy]

To further add to my last post....
Here are some thoughts to ponder before making a moronic judgement about what you as pilots percieve to be shitty service. I am speaking specifically about this thread.

1. Maybe just maybe the FSS you so highly regard in this thread (sarcasam), was on a different MF giving a detailed icing report to one of your bretheren.
2. Maybe they were coordinating an IFR departure on another MF.
3. Holy shit they may have been in communication with RCC about a distressed aircraft.
4. Could have been talking to Centre relaying an IFR arrival so that the next guy in the stack could get his clearance.
5. How about providing a DF steer on another frequency to a lost VFR aircraft.

The list goes on. Even you would agree that these tasks take precident over giving out the latest METAR.
The FSS in question could have said "unable" without giving a reason because they were to busy dealing with a high priority task.
What are you pilots taught when it comes to priorities? AVIATE, NAVIGATE, then COMMUNICATE...
Your request may have been low priority.
Think about this next time you decide to post a rant and decide to shit on someone who may have for good reason told you "UNABLE". Here's a thought...Someone with professional integrity may have politely through this forum asked the REASON they were denied service BEFORE jumping to retarded conclusions and rants about someones job. I don't understand how time and time again on this forum anyone with 50 hrs. + thinks they know everything about the ATC and FSS occupation. It shines a light on those who are unprofessional and truly ignorant.

IFRATC

I couldn't agree more.

[W0XOF]

Very well put! BZ

[bop]

IFRATC... very well put. glad someone on this thread is being logical and making sense

[Offset]

I couldn't have said it better myself IFRATC.