Cleared "via Direct"

[flap16]

When getting an IFR clearance to fly to an airport in controlled airspace and the controller clears you "Cleared YXE airport via direct, maintain FL230..etc etc" is this meant as "Cleared YXE airport via PRESENT POSITION direct", or "Cleared YXE airport via _______ (departure point) direct"???

Thanks

[Donald]

I am assuming you are in uncontrolled airspace, and are now picking up the clearance while airborne, so...

Yes, in that scenario direct is PPD. Otherwise you would have been cleared "on course", or asked to "report when on course" or cleared via a specific radial.

As always, I am not a controller, and when in doubt ask ATC for clarification.

[flap16]

Yes, I should clarify - I meant in uncontrolled airspace and picking up a clearance when airborne.
Any controllers care to confirm?

[Donald]

Your scenario would depend also on radar vs non-radar environment.

[kevenv]

We often get a/c off of a number of our airports calling airborne for a clearance. When you call me airborne for a clearance and I use "via direct" I mean go from where you are now, direct to where I told you. It doesn't matter if you are in radar or non radar airspace (I control in both). If separation will be an issue, either routing wise or altitude, I will give you very specific instructions. Hope that helps.

[flap16]

That is exactly the info I was looking for. Thanks.

[Conquest Driver]

If ATC is concerned, I've received along the lines of "Cleared to the Sioux Lookout airport via the Red Lake airport direct track". That means flight plan between the two points and no resetting the GPS. "Cleared direct to the Sioux Lookout airport" will cause me to push the Direct and Enter buttons in that order. A far more common state of affairs.

[RVR6000]

I've understood it as the direct track from departure point to desination. If I'm told 'present position direct', then I would hit direct enter on the gps, otherwise I intercept the track.

[invertedattitude]

RVR6000, as kevenv said, if cleared "Direct to the ABC airport" the controller is expecting you to proceed PPD, not re-intercept the track, there may in fact be very good reason for that and he/she doesn't want you re-intercepting the track.

[kevenv]

There is no "via present position direct" in our books. I do hear a few coworkers use the term, though there is no requirement to do so. I have always wondered why they use it. "Present position direct" FIXAA as opposed to what? Where you were when you departed direct? As I stated in an earlier reply, I expect you to go from where you are when I issue the clx to where I have cleared you to. Not turn to intercept a track between two points. If I want you on a track between the two, I will tell you and if in controlled airspace, probably give you instructions on how to get there.

The problem with intercepting a track between two points is this:

Where will you pick up the track? Will you turn from where you are to intercept the track at a 30 degree angle? Will you turn back to the airport/navaid and overfly it, setting course to the next fix? Will you turn.......... Too vague for my liking.

What if you are in controlled airspace and depart VFR? If you depart CYSJ off 23 and I clear you to destination via direct PNN FPR and you have filed CYSJ YSJ PNN...... I expect you to go from where you are direct to PNN. If you turn north to intercept a track between the VOR and PNN, you may end up causing a loss of separation with traffic I might have to the north of your track. The direct PNN in this case, was given to ensure lateral separation.

Let's say you are already on a clx enroute between A and B (270 deg track) with C being next (360 deg track from B). If you are halfway between A and B and I clear you direct to C is there any question about what I want or about what you will do? I expect you will set point C into your magic box and go directly to it.

I guess all of this to say, If in doubt ask ATC. I will never ever get upset with a pilot who seeks clarification of a clx or instruction. What might be obvious to me may not come out so clear to the pilot.

Finally, "direct to" means exactly that, not "direct to after you set up an intercept between two points and navigate to there first"

[duplicate2]

What about similar phraseology for IFR clearance while still on the ground?

For example (you're on the ground in Grande Prairie): "ATC clears C-FAAA to the Edmonton City Centre Airport via Grande Prairie direct, maintain FL210, squawk 1234".

I would take this clearance to mean that you take off and navigate yourself to intercept the CYQU-CYXD track by your best available means. Not that you should take off and then hit Direct-To CYXD from whatever position you happen to be in when you feel like turning on course.

Comments?

[kevenv]

What about similar phraseology for IFR clearance while still on the ground?

For example (you're on the ground in Grande Prairie): "ATC clears C-FAAA to the Edmonton City Centre Airport via Grande Prairie direct, maintain FL210, squawk 1234".

I would take this clearance to mean that you take off and navigate yourself to intercept the CYQU-CYXD track by your best available means. Not that you should take off and then hit Direct-To CYXD from whatever position you happen to be in when you feel like turning on course.

Comments?

You are correct. The inclusion of "via Grand Prairie" direct in the clx and the lack of any specific departure instructions means that you should do as you mentioned above. As a note, we are required to insert the departure airport in the clx when issuing it to a/c through an FSS and I think as well as when issuing it directly to an a/c on the ground.

In your example above if I add specific departure instructions like:

"ATC clears C-FAAA to the Edmonton City Centre Airport via Grande Prairie direct, maintain FL210, depart rwy XX, fly heading XXX till able direct CYXD, squawk 2345", I have given you a heading to get you started in the right direction, I want you to go direct as soon as you can, not navigate to an intercept point.

[atcguy]

"Via direct" use to be synonomous with PPD whereas "direct " meant something a little different. From an ATC prospective I would never issue "via direct" when aircraft is not known to be above a safe altitude (MVA, MSA...) as this would constitute a vector and by saying via direct we are now assuming responsibility for terrain sep until first rooting point is reached. "Direct" on the other hand implies that the aircraft should only initiate a turn on a departure say when they have achieved the necessary safe altitude for the departing aerodrome. On course is the zame as direct.

[IFRATC]

An aircraft is only on vectors when it is radar identified. You absolutely can use via direct right off the ground. It is the pilots responsibility for terrain clearance. It is there responsibility to turn on course when safe and able.

IFRATC

[francois201]

An aircraft is only on vectors when it is radar identified. You absolutely can use via direct right off the ground. It is the pilots responsibility for terrain clearance. It is there responsibility to turn on course when safe and able.

IFRATC

I've learned it the other way just like atcguy said. If I say you're cleared direct X point, it is the pilot responsability to avoid any obstacle (ground). On the other hand, if I were to say present position direct or via direct I am then responsible for obstacles along the route. I.E. Close to an airport there is a area where the msa is let's say 4500 but the MVA is 5200. If the A/C is 5000' and radar identified and I say present position direct or via direct, according to what I was always told, I just busted the MVA ( it is the equivalent to a vector because the pilot has to turn). But, if I said your cleared direct X point, it's all good because he's above the MSA and he is going to turn whenever he decides it is safe to do so. At least, this is what I was always told...

[francois201]

Just like to add that the guy was asking for clarification on when you are airborne not on the ground...

[kevenv]

( it is the equivalent to a vector because the pilot has to turn)

Where were you taught? There is no such thing as "equivalent to a vector". If you specify a heading to fly for an airborne identified a/c, you are vectoring it. If you clear the a/c to a point, you are not. There is no such phraseology (outside of 1 instance in the Military Procedures section) as "present position direct". In your example of the MSA at 4500, the a/c is above it when you clear him direct or via direct or present position direct. There is no issue here.

[francois201]

That would explain it Keven I was taught by the military lol

And following this reread my post you will understand what I was saying. In my example, the msa is lower than the mva. So, if the ac was at 5k, the msa is 45 and the mva 55 let's say, you use present position direct, you're f*****. That was my point It is rare that the msa are lower than the mva but I've seen it.

[kevenv]

That would explain it Keven I was taught by the military lol

And following this reread my post you will understand what I was saying. In my example, the msa is lower than the mva. So, if the ac was at 5k, the msa is 45 and the mva 55 let's say, you use present position direct, you're f*****. That was my point It is rare that the msa are lower than the mva but I've seen it.

I was taught by the military first time around as well, working in Cold Lake and Moose Jaw and NEVER heard of this concept of yours (present position direct = a vector). I also never heard of it in Goose Bay as a civilian controller. Nor have I ever heard of it with NavCanada. There is no such thing in MANOPS as "equivalent to a vector". Not in the white pages, and unless ATC has changed drastically in the CF, not in the CF Supp pages either. The a/c in your example is above the MSA. Telling him "Present Position Direct" does not mean you are vectoring him. There is no such thing as "equivalent to a vector". There is nothing wrong with clearing him direct somewhere using whatever form of direct you want (via, PP, etc).

It is not unusual for the MSA in some quadrants to be lower than the MVA.

[francois201]

Don't think the manops have change, probably just one of these military way to do things...do this do that and the minute you ask why, good luck finding the answer. I'll double check on my side tomorrow just to see what other people think but here's out it was explained to me:

if you were to say present position direct, the pilot have absolutely no other choice but to turn from his present position directly to the point. Which would be the exact same as a vector because the result is the same (he is going to turn left or right, right away assuming you're assuming responsability for obstacle clearance. Not saying I agree lol just telling you what I was always told.

That being said, I talked with one of my good friend who happens to be a commercial pilot and he said to him it would make any difference, the controller said to go direct he is going direct. Doesn't matter if it was present position direct or direct...that's also why I'm going to look it up tomorrow

It's great to have different opinions on the subjet! I appreciate it!