Hold Clearance

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Apache64_
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Hold Clearance

Post by Apache64_ » Thu May 28, 2009 7:16 am

Just wondering if someone here could help me out. I pretend to be ATC in the sim and I need to get the language right for a hold clearance for a dme hold. Specially with one that would require the aircraft to cross the VOR to get to the radial that they would be holding on. IE the 5 dme fix on the YYC VOR on the 170 radial, when the aircraft is coming in from the north.

Any Help is greatly appreciated.


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Apache64_
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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by Apache64_ » Thu May 28, 2009 7:17 am

Oh in the scenario above the aircraft would be anticipating an approach after the hold. If that makes a difference.
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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by AuxBatOn » Thu May 28, 2009 7:52 am

On th emultiple DME holds I've got, this is what they said:

"XXXX, you are cleared to the YXX 170 radial at 5, via direct, to hold between 5 and 10, descend and maintain XX Thousand, Expected Approach Time is XXXX"

5 is a wee close to the station, 10 or 15 is more common I think.
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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by NJ » Thu May 28, 2009 9:38 am

Here's a small bit of it.

454 HOLD CLEARANCES
454.1
If necessary, issue one of the following holding clearances:
A. Standard holding clearance.
Phraseology:
CLEARED TO THE (fix), HOLD (direction) ON (specified) RADIAL/COURSE/INBOUND TRACK.

B. Non-standard holding clearance.
Phraseology:
CLEARED TO THE (fix), HOLD (direction) ON (specified) RADIAL/COURSE/INBOUND TRACK, LEFT TURNS.

C. Detailed holding clearance.
Phraseology:
CLEARED TO THE (fix), HOLD ON (specified) RADIAL/COURSE/INBOUND TRACK, BETWEEN (location) AND A POINT (number) MINUTES (direction), RIGHT/LEFT TURNS.

D. DME holding clearance.
Phraseology:
CLEARED TO THE (name) TACAN/VOR/NDB (specified) RADIAL/BEARING (number) DME FIX, HOLD BETWEEN (number) AND (number) DME.

E. Published holding pattern clearance.
Phraseology:
CLEARED TO THE (fix), HOLD (direction) AS PUBLISHED.

454.2
Issue, with the holding clearance, an expect approach clearance time, expect further clearance
time, or the time to depart the fix, and revise it as necessary.
Phraseology:
EXPECT APPROACH CLEARANCE AT (time).
EXPECT FURTHER CLEARANCE AT (time).
DEPART (fix) AT (time).
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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by Pygmie » Thu May 28, 2009 9:47 am

"XXXX cleared to the Calgary VOR 170 radial, 10 dme fix, via direct the Calgary VOR direct, maintain 7,000. Hold between 10 and 20 dme. Expect approach clearance at HHMM."

That would be the clearance for the holding situation you had described.

And AuxBatOn is correct, 5 DME is typically too close to the station. There are issues with ambiguity and slant range when you are holding that close.
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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by Apache64_ » Thu May 28, 2009 8:31 pm

Thanks guys/girls!
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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by AuxBatOn » Thu May 28, 2009 9:14 pm

Apache64_ wrote:Specially with one that would require the aircraft to cross the VOR to get to the radial that they would be holding on.
Why go to the VOR first then go to the DME?!
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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by Pygmie » Thu May 28, 2009 10:06 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:
Apache64_ wrote:Specially with one that would require the aircraft to cross the VOR to get to the radial that they would be holding on.
Why go to the VOR first then go to the DME?!
Aircraft that don't have GPS or RNAV systems, can't go direct a radial/DME fix (unless they are on that radial already, and can just follow it in).
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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by AuxBatOn » Fri May 29, 2009 6:50 am

Pygmie wrote:
AuxBatOn wrote:
Apache64_ wrote:Specially with one that would require the aircraft to cross the VOR to get to the radial that they would be holding on.
Why go to the VOR first then go to the DME?!
Aircraft that don't have GPS or RNAV systems, can't go direct a radial/DME fix (unless they are on that radial already, and can just follow it in).
Really? I'm pretty sure I can do it within 0.5 DME. If I can do it, eveyone can do it
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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:44 pm

Sounds like the CF still uses the good old "TLAR" method :lol:
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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by Apache64_ » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:29 pm

Main reason would be the fact that the scenario I had in mind would be the aircraft is directly north of the VOR, holding south of the VOR, figured the easiest way to do that would be direct VOR to the fix. As well, the hold puts them south of the the NDB for 28 approach which would be the one that they transition to.



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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by SAR_YQQ » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:37 pm

AuxBat is referring to the lovely skilled called "Point-to-point".

All it takes is a straight finger and an HSI.
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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by Apache64_ » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:17 pm

Okay never heard of this nifty trick. Care to enlighten me?
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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by AuxBatOn » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:32 pm

Apache64_ wrote:Okay never heard of this nifty trick. Care to enlighten me?
http://www.icpschool.com/Downloads/file ... nnexAa.PDF

First section. "TACAN Point-to-Point navigation". Replace the TACAN by a VOR/DME et voila!

There is a bit of math involved (fractions), and you need to find on your HSI where 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 and possibly 1/8 is.
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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by SAR_YQQ » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:09 pm

While a good tool for basic IF - the point to point has been replaced by modern avionics. Any decent FMS/GPS can DTO a point in space that has been defined. Even if it is a VOR/DME radial - the ability to PVOR any point allows for easy replication of this skill.

We don't even assess the students on their Advanced Flight Training for point-to-points, if we give one, we just use it to evaluate their basic IF skills. I gave my student one today and in the time he took to come up with his heading - I had already punched it into the FMS and DTO'd it.
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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by AuxBatOn » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:17 pm

SAR_YQQ wrote:While a good tool for basic IF - the point to point has been replaced by modern avionics. Any decent FMS/GPS can DTO a point in space that has been defined. Even if it is a VOR/DME radial - the ability to PVOR any point allows for easy replication of this skill.

We don't even assess the students on their Advanced Flight Training for point-to-points, if we give one, we just use it to evaluate their basic IF skills. I gave my student one today and in the time he took to come up with his heading - I had already punched it into the FMS and DTO'd it.
SAR_YYQ, I totally agree, however on the basic IF, I think, other than giving someone an option as to how to get from A to B, it helps develop Situational Awareness.

As for the assesment on Advanced Flight Training, I believe it is assessed on the Jet program. But you are right, with modern equipment, it's totally useless. However in the case described in the original post, it would be more efficient to go directly to the point rather than intercept the radial then go to the fix.
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Re: Hold Clearance

Post by ahramin » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:09 pm

A good point here is that the basics are definitely lacking. Even with modern FMS many pilots cannot do point to point or self vector. I have heard a business jet crew unable to accept a clearance direct to a dme/radial fix as they were not on the radial. I have seen many pilots who cannot vector themselves onto final even with large moving map GPSs.
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