that's not min VFR, 300' and clear of cloud is min VFR. sometimes the Wx is to bad to go IFR but still good to go VFR. With the approach ban in effect and vis required at over a mile, it's legal and usually safe to request a special to get into an airport that would otherwise have an approach ban which means the operator now has a smaller fuel reserve which means the plane can legally carry more weight.
I love the CARs.
either way yes CFIT is an issue in aviation but 3 miles would not really be considered Min VFR
SVFR procedures now leaves the determination of whether the ceiling will affect flight within the zone in the pilot's hands. However, the rule requiring pilots to maintain 500 ft AGL and 500 ft clear of cloud did not change. The SVFR rule change was made to allow flight within the zone without having to request SVFR when the conditions allowed it. I'm seeing pilots using the rule change now to transit the zone when it's obvious the conditions are not appropriate.
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Having a standard that pilots lose their licence after making a mistake despite doing no harm to aircraft or passengers means soon you needn't worry about a pilot surplus or pilots offering to fly for free. Where do you get your experience from?
I'm seeing pilots using the rule change now to transit the zone when it's obvious the conditions are not appropriate.
I don't know what conditions you consider inappropriate but I would be quite interested to know what commercial flight experiance you have and where you gained that experiance?
GilletteNorth wrote:I'm seeing pilots using the rule change now to transit the zone when it's obvious the conditions are not appropriate.
I observe the same thing, but also with arrivals and departures. Many times ceiling was around 600ft and crew departed / arrived anyway without SVFR. How can this be possible?
Pilots do not issue the METAR. I'M the one doing the weather observing and reporting the conditions within my control zone. I'm not a commercial pilot. What I AM is a FSS with years of experience observing weather conditions. If you are a pilot, it's fairly obvious what conditions I'm referring to. I can easily see low clouds that are overcast and quite stable and uniform in their height above the ground. I have many methods of determining that cloud height quite accurately. I can also watch supposedly VFR aircraft transitting my zone within sight underneath those very same clouds. All it will take is one or two instances of an IFR aircraft doing the approach and popping out under the cloud deck coming too close to or even colliding with a low flying VFR aircraft transitting the zone without having requested SVFR when it should have, for the decision that changed the method of applying the SVFR rule to be reversed again.
I should mention that the rule concerning 500ft AGL and clear of cloud does not apply to departing/arriving aircraft. You may be less than 500 ft AGL but still have the requirement to remain clear of cloud during arrival/departure.
Here's an example of my concern. My control zone has a 5nm radius and has a water aerodrome 3 nm south of the main airport. That means during conditions of an overcast ceiling below 1000 ft, an aircraft coming in from the north to land at the waterbase must fly 8 nm under low cloud to get to the waterbase. There is higher and lower terrain in the vicinity. If there ever is a crash I wonder if Transport Canada will allow someone to argue that they needed to fly a low level 8 nm long final. They usually circle to line up into wind within the last 2 nm which is the actual landing phase. What comes before is called transitting.
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Last edited by GilletteNorth on Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Having a standard that pilots lose their licence after making a mistake despite doing no harm to aircraft or passengers means soon you needn't worry about a pilot surplus or pilots offering to fly for free. Where do you get your experience from?
1) What airspace are you operating in? Towards? AIM 2.8
2) What are the VFR weather limits for those Classes of airspace? AIM 7.7.3
3) What is the minimum enroute altitude? AIM 5.5 Min Alt - VFR /AIM 5.6 Min Alt - Overflying Aerodrome
An airport with a dashed line around it is a 'control zone' and weather limits for such are 3 mi, 1m and 500' clear of cloud and 500' agl. You can not apply the 500' from cloud and no agl rule for class E as it is based at 2200' agl! The zone maybe class E but it IS A CONTROL ZONE! (AIM 7.7.3 Fig 2.7) Request the Special.
Additionally, if you are transiting a 'zone' you are deemed OVER an airport and that has to happen at 2000'. Please stay clear if you do not have to be there.
GilletteNorth wrote:I should mention that the rule concerning 500ft AGL and clear of cloud does not apply to departing/arriving aircraft. You may be less than 500 ft AGL but still have the requirement to remain clear of cloud during arrival/departure.
That's right but when they have departed, or before they start their "arrival phase", they must be 500ft AGL and 500ft from clouds. Therefore in order for a pilot to depart or arrive when ceiling is below 1000 ft, the ceiling MUST be higher outside the airport so when they are not in arrival or departure phase, ceiling is 1000ft or higher.
GilletteNorth wrote:I should mention that the rule concerning 500ft AGL and clear of cloud does not apply to departing/arriving aircraft. You may be less than 500 ft AGL but still have the requirement to remain clear of cloud during arrival/departure.
That's right but when they have departed, or before they start their "arrival phase", they must be 500ft AGL and 500ft from clouds. Therefore in order for a pilot to depart or arrive when ceiling is below 1000 ft, the ceiling MUST be higher outside the airport so when they are not in arrival or departure phase, ceiling is 1000ft or higher.
Actually the rule concerning 500ft AGL and clear of cloud does not apply because you are in a Class E Control Zone. They can be less than 500' BUT the ceiling still has to be 1000' (VFR) to allow the 500' cloud clearance, otherwise a Special to depart/arrive IS required. If the airspace they are entering on departure from the 'zone' is Class G and they intend to remain below 2200' agl, all they need is 'clear' of cloud (plus required vis). If they intend to climb above 2200' the ceiling would have to be 2700' to allow them to be the 500' clear (below) of cloud. Don't forget that a 'transition zone' may be around the airport basing the class E at 700' agl; class G below.
The only time clear of cloud applies is when the airspace & airport lay in class G which is topped at 2200' agl.
I'm not a commercial pilot. What I AM is a FSS with years of experience observing weather conditions. If you are a pilot, it's fairly obvious what conditions I'm referring to
yep, and remember those Wx limits drop the second we leave the control zone so the only thing standing between a legal flgiht acomplished and a phone call from transport enforcment is people in your position.
The only time clear of cloud applies is when the airspace & airport lay in class G which is topped at 2200' agl.
so if I'm 100 miles north of Yellow knife at FL170 what class of airspace am I in?
edited for the quote button
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Last edited by poke-her player on Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.
so if I'm 100 miles north of Yellow knife at FL170 what class of airspace am I in?
You have to ask? Class G and only because you (I assume) are nowhere near airways or airports which is what the Class E surrounds. Remember, again, we are talking about Special VFR and that means Control Zones.
Just for shits and giggles can some one tell me why there are distances from cloud at night?
Because if they didn't S P E L L* I T * O U T people like you would think that at night its okay to enter cloud just because you can't see them. Its TCs way of saying; day or night - same rules apply BUT you need more vis at night. I think too that TAFs, METARs and GFAs apply - you should have in idea where you'll find cloud - avoid it.
Now please stop trying to stir the sh*t and let those that don't get it, and want to learn, do so without dumb comments - thanks.
I should mention that the rule concerning 500ft AGL and clear of cloud does not apply to departing/arriving aircraft. You may be less than 500 ft AGL but still have the requirement to remain clear of cloud during arrival/departure.
Sorry if I accidentally misinformed anyone. I looked in the CARs and read that section in the uncontrolled airspace rules section and should have gotten it right. I guess I got confused having read the rule and thinking the aircraft has to decend below 500 ft at some point to land. But it goes to show I was correct in thinking pilots should not be transitting the control zone to land without having 500 and 500.
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Having a standard that pilots lose their licence after making a mistake despite doing no harm to aircraft or passengers means soon you needn't worry about a pilot surplus or pilots offering to fly for free. Where do you get your experience from?
GilletteNorth: All it will take is one or two instances of an IFR aircraft doing the approach and popping out under the cloud deck coming too close to or even colliding with a low flying VFR aircraft transitting the zone without having requested SVFR when it should have, for the decision that changed the method of applying the SVFR rule to be reversed again.
and it starts... (AOR filed yesterday)
Aircraft1 IFR-inbound for runway XX. Numerous VFR aircraft waiting for SVFR to enter and exit the control zone. Aircraft2 (vfr) first reported 20 E inbound, an airport advisory was passed including the IFR traffic and the ceiling at 500 feet (visibility was 8 miles). Aircraft2 proceeded inbound for landing runway XX without requesting SVFR and joined a 4 nm final with Aircraft1 procedure turn inbound. Aircraft1 stated he would have to miss because he didn't have traffic in sight. Aircraft1 broke out of cloud at the VOR and advised he had traffic in sight and would cancel IFR and circle for runway XX. Traffic information was passed and updated frequently between the Aircraft1 and Aircraft2. Aircraft1 landed safely runway XX. The pilot for Aircraft1 expressed concern at the presence of Aircraft2 in IMC weather.
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Having a standard that pilots lose their licence after making a mistake despite doing no harm to aircraft or passengers means soon you needn't worry about a pilot surplus or pilots offering to fly for free. Where do you get your experience from?
GilletteNorth: All it will take is one or two instances of an IFR aircraft doing the approach and popping out under the cloud deck coming too close to or even colliding with a low flying VFR aircraft transitting the zone without having requested SVFR when it should have, for the decision that changed the method of applying the SVFR rule to be reversed again.
and it starts... (AOR filed yesterday)
Aircraft1 IFR-inbound for runway XX. Numerous VFR aircraft waiting for SVFR to enter and exit the control zone. Aircraft2 (vfr) first reported 20 E inbound, an airport advisory was passed including the IFR traffic and the ceiling at 500 feet (visibility was 8 miles). Aircraft2 proceeded inbound for landing runway XX without requesting SVFR and joined a 4 nm final with Aircraft1 procedure turn inbound. Aircraft1 stated he would have to miss because he didn't have traffic in sight. Aircraft1 broke out of cloud at the VOR and advised he had traffic in sight and would cancel IFR and circle for runway XX. Traffic information was passed and updated frequently between the Aircraft1 and Aircraft2. Aircraft1 landed safely runway XX. The pilot for Aircraft1 expressed concern at the presence of Aircraft2 in IMC weather.
There was one out this way a few weeks ago with an IFR and a float driver - claimed he wasn't in cloud but that's where they 'found' him. (Uncontrolled airspace)
Glad everything ended safely but of interest is this part:
ceiling at 500 feet (visibility was 8 miles)
&
Aircraft1 broke out of cloud at the VOR and advised he had traffic in sight and would cancel IFR and circle for runway
Sorry, but he wasn't VFR either and can't/shouldn't cancel the IFR, unless he too requested - and got - the Special.
GilletteNorth wrote:Aircraft1 IFR-inbound for runway XX. Numerous VFR aircraft waiting for SVFR to enter and exit the control zone. Aircraft2 (vfr) first reported 20 E inbound, an airport advisory was passed including the IFR traffic and the ceiling at 500 feet (visibility was 8 miles). Aircraft2 proceeded inbound for landing runway XX without requesting SVFR and joined a 4 nm final with Aircraft1 procedure turn inbound. Aircraft1 stated he would have to miss because he didn't have traffic in sight. Aircraft1 broke out of cloud at the VOR and advised he had traffic in sight and would cancel IFR and circle for runway XX. Traffic information was passed and updated frequently between the Aircraft1 and Aircraft2. Aircraft1 landed safely runway XX. The pilot for Aircraft1 expressed concern at the presence of Aircraft2 in IMC weather.
Here's a situation where you can maintain VFR with a reported vis greater than 3SM and ceiling lower than 1000ftAGL. Station elevation is 350ftASL. Ceiling is reported as 800ftAGL. An aircraft is transitting along the shoreline at 500ftASL but within the control zone. That puts him at 500ft above ground/water and 650ft below cloud. Sounds like VFR to me.
that's not min VFR, 300' and clear of cloud is min VFR. sometimes the Wx is to bad to go IFR but still good to go VFR. With the approach ban in effect and vis required at over a mile, it's legal and usually safe to request a special to get into an airport that would otherwise have an approach ban which means the operator now has a smaller fuel reserve which means the plane can legally carry more weight.
? No need to reply.
