Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

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Is a class action warranted against Nav-Canada?

Yes
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3%
No
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97%
 
Total votes: 33

brtalbot
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Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by brtalbot » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:17 am

Having been an IFR Student with Nav-Canada a few years ago (2003-2004 Winnipeg ACC), I would like to know if some of you feel that a class action is warranted against Nav-Canada based on the following criteria:

1. While other countries have a success rate of well over 80%, Nav-Canada has a success rate well below 80%. And they make no effort in warning you about that.

I feel that all this adventure was a trap and after 6 years, i still get upset for falling into it.


You thoughts....
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grimey
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by grimey » Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:03 am

What are you going to sue them for, your lack of research?
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kevenv
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by kevenv » Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:03 am

brtalbot wrote:1. While other countries have a success rate of well over 80%, Nav-Canada has a success rate well below 80%. And they make no effort in warning you about that.
Would you be so kind as to post your factual documentation / information that you are basing this statement on or provide links to these countries ATS systems that shows / claims 80% plus success rates?
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brtalbot
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by brtalbot » Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:58 am

I did the research some years ago but i will dig it out. In the mean time here is to links for you:

One from Sweden and the other one from the UK clearly stating their success rate.

http://www.edu.avesta.se/domarhagsskola ... /satsa.pdf
http://atcocareers.co.uk/application-process.html

I did not see anything like that on Nav-Canada web site.
If you would be so kind as to identify your current position: Student - Ex-Student - Controller. Thank you

P.S. Few years ago i found in the minutes of a shareholders meeting a reference to 36% success rate in atc training. I will try to dig it out again.
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brtalbot
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by brtalbot » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:12 am

Here another one that is very interesting. 95% for the FAA.

http://gns.gannettonline.com/misc/wfplan.pdf
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burly
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by burly » Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:10 am

I got an idea. Get over the fact you were CT'd 6 years ago and move on with your life.
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NJ
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by NJ » Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:30 am

Are you going to sue a University for them not telling you the success rate of graduates?
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Braun
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by Braun » Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:57 am

There are several paper you sign before you start the course that make sure you understand the risks. The success rates are no surprise to anyone that did any sort of research before applying. If the company decides to train a certain way and 35% is the success rate I fail to see how suing would get you anywhere, it is there problem. The main reason a lot of places are understaffed is because no one wants to go there because #1 it is hard #2 pay is the same no matter on traffic #3 no one wants to relocate. If Nav Canada would make incentives for controllers to go to tougher positions the staffing would be resolved fairly quickly as new trainees could train on the easier sectors which are usually overstaffed...coincidence?
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kevenv
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by kevenv » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:35 am

Did you actually read the info at the links you provided?

UK Nats- Success rate from the College - about 66%
This is the college not the actual checkout rate.

Sweden- "SATSA´s training goal is to reach and maintain a 90 % success rate..."
Again this document is from their school, doesn't provide the actual success rate and nowhere mentions a final check out rate.

FAA- They are talking about their academy success rate, not check out rate.

If there was a way to achieve a 95% success rate to checkout, there wouldn't be a shortage of controllers everywhere.

If you are going to start a lawsuit I would suggest you take your lawyer more than those links.

BTW, in response to your question, I have a license.
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by ywgflyboy » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:37 pm

I feel safe knowing the ones who make it through NavCanada are watching the skies. My general feeling is that they are held to stronger standards than some other countries/organizations I read/hear about. Last time I flew into the states, the controller in MSP did not even know how to say my callsign. He gave up and just said, C-ABCD instead of alpha, bravo etc.

If you flunked out, move on. We don't need controllers who need OJIs their entire career.
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natej
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by natej » Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:22 pm

Do you know why NavCanada has less then 1 loss of separation for every 100,000 IFR movements? Probably has something to do with the fact they only hire the best, and those who can cut it. You think they enjoy investing in people for 6-12 months and then having to CT them when they can't handle the pressure/stress? It costs them a lot of money.

The system works.

http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefiniti ... 008_en.pdf
The global benchmark for measuring safety performance is the rate
of IFR-to-IFR losses of separation. From a rate of about one per 100,000
air traffic movements in fiscal 2001, the five-year moving average has
declined to about 0.75 per 100,000 in the past fiscal year.
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by AEROBAT » Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:35 pm

Nav Canada should be commended for holding a high standard.
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brtalbot
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by brtalbot » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:50 pm

I did not ask for personal bashing but thank you for your reply. My point is Nav Canada should do a better job at selecting its trainee. I am no alone in this ordeal. After a year an half of training an a month away of going on the floor, i was CT with very little warning or remedial training (1 week). I noticed also that people over 30 and married were targeted. I had one instructor say to us that we should divorce in order to have a chance of success. Anyway it is my story along hundreds of others who's life were played with like russian roulette. I am talking about the human aspect of all it.
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by parrot_head » Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:32 pm

I'm over 30 and married and I know a few others who are as well....try again.
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robshelle
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by robshelle » Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:47 pm

I have seen good people, who have lots of experience as ATC not even be able to cross qualify into new specialties. I myself have tried IFR twice, and made it to the end before I was CT'd the first time, then pulled the plug the second time (was not enjoying the specialty I was training in). I have seen a few IFR controllers not be able to qualify as VFR controllers. I have seen GT's (the simulation specialists that run the simulators and play the role of pilots) not be able to qualify, and although they were not controlling in the simulators, they had seen and experienced what all trainees went through, for many years.
The point of this above rant is that it is practically impossible to be able to hire and train only those who will qualify. This job is very dynamic, and very different in its different disciplines.
As for not knowing the low checkout rate, I will call BS because even 14 years ago when I hired on, I knew that it was dismally low, everyone who went through NCTI knew that just getting through there was only a first step on the long road to qualification. And this checkout rate has not gotten any better, nor do I see it in the future.

Robbie Benusic
CYEG Tower
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natej
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by natej » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:51 am

Wait, you want them to add ANOTHER layer of testing to become ATC? Lets see.

You write the online test.
You write the 6 hour aptitude test in person.
Phone interview.
In person interview.
3 References/security/medical clearance.

Then once you show up.

4-8 tests in which you MUST get over 80%... multiple SIM evaluations in which you must also get 80%....

THEN you start on the floor/in the tower, and have to pass multiple phases/levels of training.

So where do you think another test is appropriate? You can only test potential candidates so much. Someone could in theory be a genius, ace every test, do well in the sim, but when they get to the real world, and you add the factor of unpredictability, fall to pieces and be unable to handle the stress.

Until you are checked out, you are not done the recruitment/checking/training process. It is a long, 1-2, even 3 year process. Just because you made it through the basic training, and onto the floor, does not mean you are done. It's just another step in the process.
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by ywgflyboy » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:41 am

There are multiple layers of testing. I have tried every year and always fail. I don't care, I just do it for fun anyways. I guess my personality isn't what they are looking for :lol:

There comes a time in every profession where you need to find out if you make the cut or not. They don't just give anyone a MD, or a license to control aircraft with thousands of lives.

If you want to try again, go for it. Do it. But what do you plan on getting out of this class action suit? Cause I am willing to bet you the $1,000,000.00 you are trying to sue them for that you will never get a job with them if you try something so silly.
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by tower controller » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:25 pm

My point is Nav Canada should do a better job at selecting its trainee.


Yeah maybe they should, and if I could come up with a simple, efficient, and accurate test that would tell Nav Canada (and other ATS providers) that somebody off the street has what it takes to be a controller I wouldn't have to worry about living on the money they pay me to control airplanes.
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brtalbot
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by brtalbot » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:07 pm

Well obviously they has been very little posting from people who CTed. So most of you don't even know what i had to endure. The point of a class action suit would be a commitment from them to change the following points:

1. Better selection process in order to achieve a higher success rate than 35% (and more transparency at the beginning)
2. Once you get to your regional school, to have a better support program for student (At the time of my training, there was someone to support us, but her son was going trough the program so there was sort of a conflict of interest. She wouldn't listen to us at all.)
3. An a monetary reward (minimal) in order for them to realize that they cant play with people life and therefore they should take it seriously. (a week of remedial training with several strong assessments from someone from the floor completely disregarded is not serious at all).

I do not like some of the comments that were made. I don't think that i have been disrespectful to anybody. But of course anonymity brings down all the barrier.
It is only a discussion and no it wont affect your tax return or something serious like that.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by AuxBatOn » Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:11 pm

I wasn't gonne say anything, but I'll jump in. For the records, I have no experience with ATC.

BUT, you sound like you have a HUGE sense of entitlement. You failed, you weren't good enough. Your instructors decided that. Period. Get over it and carry on with life.
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tdi_ywg
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by tdi_ywg » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:57 pm

I too was not going to say anything but after reading the entire thread and thinking about my experience I felt the need to chime in.

I recall very clearly knowing right from the beginning of my training at NCTI that the success rate is very low. Did it affect, in any way, my desire to continue? No. Did I ever think "Oh, maybe I should just quit since only 35% of us trainees will get a license."? No. I trained every day with the idea in my mind that I was going to get a license. Some days perhaps not so much (like the time I f*&#ed up a clearance on my check ride. Really fun.). I think that you would be hard pressed to find a trainee that does not go to work every day with that same idea in their mind. You say that you were not aware of the low success rate, which raises the following question: Had you known that the success rate was so low, would you have up and quit right at the start? Honestly. I have never heard of anyone packing it in because they found out that the success rate is what it is.

I just cannot see how it could be possible that you were not aware of the low success rate. As a previous poster said, move on with your life. Not everyone is capable of obtaining an ATC license. That's just the way it is

Do you think that a teenage hockey player who gets a spot on a junior team (WHL, OHL, QMJHL) thinks "Well, I know that I will never make the NHL but what the heck, I'll do this anyways."?
But of course anonymity brings down all the barrier.
Sorry, I never caught your name.

Scott Nystrom
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by IFRATC » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:52 am

Sounds to me like all your posts reflect that of ALL trainees who have been CT'ed. You exhausted all your time and efforts into excuses. At no point in your training was the responsibility yours??? You are an adult. The resources are there. Did you exhaust ANY of your energy to seek individual help??? Did you talk to anyone about YOUR TRAINING? You are responsible for being CT'ed. Stop telling everyone on here about how hard done by YOU were. Excuses equate to whining.
I have had many many trainees in my 13 years thus far. I make every effort to see them succeed. The onus is on the trainee to learn and progress. I am only the facilitator of this learning. A backboard lets call it. Don't use me as your excuse for not succeeding. Grow up...

IFRATC
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by IFRATC » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:57 am

Just to continue...Do you think this was a breeze for all of us who do carry a licence??? We all had to overcome hurdles and struggles in training. At NO point did I think it was someone elses fault if I was not climbing the learning curve. It was my responsibilty. My licence was waiting for me. I just had to work very hard to get it. That will never change...

IFRATC
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RampGurl
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by RampGurl » Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:09 am

Um.... this is a ridiculous idea. Do you think students that PAY for a course at university and fail deserve their money back or have the right to file a law suit? Why would ATC training be any different?
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Re: Is a class action suit warranted against Nav-Canada?

Post by Jerricho » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:43 pm

brtalbot wrote:My point is Nav Canada should do a better job at selecting its trainee.
So you went through under the SHL/NCTI system? NATS UK were using SHL around the same time. AirServices Australia were using it as well. There are countless Controllers all over the world who have attained licences having been selected under the same process. As tower controller says, the first person who comes up with a test/formula/crystal ball for candidate screening will become one rich individual.

The truth is with any selection process, there are specific traits/abilities that Air Navigation providers look for, but nobody can ever say if any new hire walking in the door day 1 will be successful in training. Some trainees are ceased trained in the first few weeks of a course (failing written exams which is pretty much inexcusable), some go at various stages of simulation for various reasons (not putting the work OR working their asses off and just not getting it). Some make it to the floor and seem to be progressing well then crap the bed, or stagnate and can't get out of their reliance on the OJI sitting next to them to make decisions. Some can do the job to a certain workload but when things turn to sh*t (weather avoidance, blocked runway) just can't keep up.
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