Navcanada and age discrimination

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samuelsow
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Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by samuelsow » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:10 pm

i went through Navcanada recruitment process to the in-person interview before being told that my profile was not suitable for an atc training.
FYI I've been an ATC for 12+ years in another country.

I was OK with their decision until recently i had the opportunity to discuss with a former NAVCANADA official who told me that, actually their "policy" is NOT to hire 30+ years old candidates off the street furthermore having been an ATC was not an asset because they preferred hiring 20-25 years old candidates with few or no aviation background in order to format them their own way.

Did any of you guys ever experienced something like that ?
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mountainman
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by mountainman » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:10 pm

Im 28, just did my 2nd interview, and was told that it is advantageous for me to have a flying background...but we'll see if i get an offer...
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samuelsow
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by samuelsow » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:13 pm

i wish you all the best
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W0XOF
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by W0XOF » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:25 pm

If it's a policy, it's an unwritten one (unlike the written one for the FAA http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/hea ... s/emp_120/ ).
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avfun
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by avfun » Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:22 am

I heard this rumour as well when I went through NCTI, but I never saw any evidence of it. There were several people on my course significantly older than 30 who were successful.
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Jonathan
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by Jonathan » Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:42 am

avfun wrote:There were several people on my course significantly older than 30 who were successful.
Same for me. But most of the students in my course were younger than 30 though. All I can say is I did not feel any discrimination during the course itself.
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NJ
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by NJ » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:32 am

Sorry, this doesn't fly. I've seen folks of all ages and aviation backgrounds enter ATC training in my time. From what I've seen as well, previous ATC experience isn't an asset unless,of course, you're hired as an overseas controller. Your former NAVCANADA official may have indicated his ideal candidate. I'd go for something different, but everyone has their preference.
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YYZJuice
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by YYZJuice » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:39 am

I checked out in November '09 at the age of 37 Ab Initio.
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Last edited by YYZJuice on Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

skydekker
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by skydekker » Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:58 pm

Doesn't make any sense to have you in for a second interview if you don't fit the profile and you stand no chance to be selected. I doubt they would waste their time on it.

I guess we'll see. I have my second interview on Monday. I am 37 and have no aviation background.
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invertedattitude
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by invertedattitude » Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:17 am

Statistics prove people over 35 have a drastically lower chance of success than those younger
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skydekker
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by skydekker » Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:51 am

invertedattitude wrote:Statistics prove people over 35 have a drastically lower chance of success than those younger
Perfect, that makes my drive to succeed even greater.

Just so I can understand the statistics, can you provide a link to the report? I always like to read study methodology, test group selection, statistical analysis used etc.
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The Old Fogducker
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by The Old Fogducker » Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:48 am

Navcanada OJT instructors have probably found that the older guys don't pay as much in overtime to train, therefore they recommend termination so they can bring in fresh meat to enable a larger cabin cruiser to be bought.
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atcfusion
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by atcfusion » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:42 am

invertedattitude wrote:Statistics prove people over 35 have a drastically lower chance of success than those younger
Thankfully I never listen to statistics. As someone who took statistic classes in university, I know the data can be manipulated to say whatever the manipulator wants.

I have not started the training, so I can't state whether this statistic is wrong. I will say that I am strongly against something like a statistic telling me I might not succeed.

If I listened to statistics then:
I wouldn't have completed a university degree at 36 - statistics do say I had a low chance of success going back to school and succeeding at this;
and I wouldn't have gotten a stand-by offer with Nav Canada at 38 - statistics probably stated I wouldn't get this far either (although I admit it isn't as good as an actual offer, but still, I've gotten farther than a lot of people younger than me);
I was well aware that I was past the 'prime age' that Nav Canada prefers when I applied (which is 25), but I took a chance and so far it's paid off.

But:
The results could be skewed because of the high CT rate in IFR, but that is just a guess without looking at the data.
And, on the other hand, I have noticed that the older you get the more 'set in your ways' you can become. This could prevent some over 35 trainees from accepting the operational method of Nav Canada, don't like being humbled by the training, or are not flexible to the dynamic environment. There is also a higher chance of outside forces affecting these people, such as family, financing, etc. Again, it's hard to say why without seeing the data.

In the end, all this says is that I have a lower chance of passing the training. While I do agree that I could have a lower chance of success, there is still a chance of success.
No matter what I will do my best and hopefully that means being successful at passing the training (provided I'm offered a full seat).

Sorry for ranting,
atcfusion
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Last edited by atcfusion on Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Indanao
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by Indanao » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:17 am

Hello. I wonder if it is the same at this outfit:

http://www.atsservices.ca/
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The Old Fogducker
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by The Old Fogducker » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:16 pm

atcfusion:

Just make it clear you'll split any O/T 50:50 with your instructor for the first 5 years of your career and you'll do OK.

OFD
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ff09727
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by ff09727 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:59 pm

Interesting,
Won't repeat the words of atcfusion, but I have just been green lighted after a 2nd interview at 37...maybe it was my extremely youthful looks. I find it hard to believe that there are so few younger and smarter people awaiting 2nd interviews that Nav Canada gave me a mercy pass only to know in the back of thier minds that I am statistically prone to failure. Between my age, no aviation experience, memory loss, frequent bowel movements and constant wondering what is wrong with the youth of today, I wonder how I ever made it past the online test.
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CofG
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by CofG » Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:33 pm

ff09727 wrote:Interesting,
Between my age, no aviation experience, memory loss, frequent bowel movements and constant wondering what is wrong with the youth of today, I wonder how I ever made it past the online test.
Well thanks for the warning... If I end up on course with you, I'll be sure to get a seat on the otherside of the room! :lol:

Cheers!
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by Duckman54 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:56 am

I, too, just had 2nd-round interview. I'm 36, and Comm/Multi-IFR experience. Waiting for the green light! I agree with previous posts in that if they had no intention of training, they've had ample opportunity to chop already, without need to cite age. Coulda just said lotsa competition. So I think that bodes well for us old-timers!

'Greg.
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SkyWolfe
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by SkyWolfe » Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:55 pm

My class was last october. I was the youngest from anyone else by 10 years. I am 25.
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cyeg66
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by cyeg66 » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:23 pm

^ So let's just say that negates any comments made here by OFD and call it a day. Everyone, back to work....
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by The Old Fogducker » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:17 pm

I disagree ... you presented absolutely three fifths of nothing addressing the allegation that in the past, some trainees were cut by their OJI's because of OT maximizing considerations at the ACC for existing licence holders....mind you, that was well before I retired, so you may not have been there for the big YWG ACC investigation in roughly '87 to maybe '89 before the NAVCAN formation where, after interviewing numerous controllers, a computer program was found to maximize OT, sick leave benefits, long term disability, vacation time recall pay due to understaffing, failure rates of trainees, etc. ... investigation conducted by the Regional Director Civil Aviation, Mike Murphy. A few people took early retirement over that one.

But hey ... that's old news now ... I'm sure its a completely different culture on the floor now, since morale is so much improved under the NAVCAN formulation.

My comments had absolutely zero to do with age discrimmination in the hiring process, only the unbelievable washout rate and final licence issue rate relative to the number interviewed, selected, admitted to the program at NICTI, the OJT program with some OJI's that didn't have teaching skills or background to instruct a hungry pup how to eat Puppy Chow ... would seem to be a highly flawed process when you end up with a one or two percent success rate from any selection and training process ... regardless of what the training is for.

Neurosurgery likely has a higher pass ratio ... for digging around inside people's brains with a scalpel....oh, but forgive me .... ATC is so much more difficult, and requiring a type of "free-form thinking" than being a brain surgeon, therefore, the past attrocious failure rate is fully justified.

OFD
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by cyeg66 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:46 am

As you go trolling, allow me to nibble a bit on the bait.

We're talking about something that allegedly transpired in the 80's, in one particular unit, where it all could have possibly been the result of one or two persons (read: idiots) that were in charge of training that should not have been in charge of training.......? That brush is quite wide indeed, and impossibly irrelevant. I'm still trying to figure out if you were serious about today's morale having improved under the new ATS provider.... And you'd better believe that this is definitely not the same organization it was under Transport.

--Neurosurgery?.... really...? Could you show me where/when someone cited atc as being more difficult than neurosurgery. We should go ahead and surmise that bus driving is more difficult than flying an airplane. Tell you what, if they 'lowered' the standards for entry into the college of medicine to having no more than a high school diploma and a few rocks in your head (apt for any atc), what would the resultant washout rate be? Better still, if the nationwide success rate in atc improved to (for giggles) 95%, a figure more closely approximating that of a local grocery store clerk, would you feel more comfortable flying about?

Enjoy your retirement OFD. Glad to hear your cheery thoughts aren't in the active workforce. :?
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by Indanao » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:51 am

OLD GUARD, NEW GUARD, problems in Calgary are most probably a result of McCrae involvement.
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by cyeg66 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:04 pm

Indanao wrote: OLD GUARD, NEW GUARD, problems in Calgary are most probably a result of McCrae involvement.
I agree, and though the effect was pervasive, that no longer explains all of it. Management, shake your heads.... Besides that, perhaps things will get better as retirement (officially, i.e. non-double-dipping) claims some lasting vestiges of the 60's and 70's boomers whose expiry date has come and gone... By no means does this disparaging remark apply to all old-timers. Some (most) of them are great to work with. The culture is definitely changing, though. :smt038
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Re: Navcanada and age discrimination

Post by felix0315 » Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:00 pm

Does anyone know if Nav Canada has an age preference?
I'm 19 years old and I just applied at their website.
Like everyone else, I passed the easy tests.
My assessment date still has a gray question mark on it.
I'm wondering if I even have a chance to make it through

What do you guys think? :smt100


Felix
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