Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

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cossack
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by cossack »

The observation is made on the hour but takes a couple of minutes to reach our screens. Then the person in flight planning that is responsible for the ATIS has to make any changes that have occurred since the last message, check for PIREPs that need to be added or deleted, then do whatever they need to do to make the auto-voice thingy work :wink: all the time still trying to do their flight planning work.

If they are busy on the phone dealing with a flight planning issue, it might take an extra couple of minutes to get the ATIS out. If its out by 10 after I think they're doing OK. If I'm working clearance I always try not to phone them after the top of the hour if the ATIS hasn't been done yet.
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by 1000islander »

Thanks...see you on the radio :wink:
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126.75
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by 126.75 »

I am curious how you guys come up with runway assignments. It has not happened much in the last 6 months (I've noticed a huge improvement) but prior to that there would be two runways designated on the D-ATIS and about 50% of the time (or so it seemed) the third runway is what we would get. In the Airbus we only have 2 runways we can plan for and it resulted in us being heads down madly typing in the third option as we were coming in on the arrival. Again, I've noticed an improvement as of late.

As far as moving planes in and out faster, I know the manops are much more restrictive than in the US so perhaps it is what is holding you back but am curious about what can be done to speed things up. I have found in Toronto it is rare to have a visual departure where we could get cleared to depart right when the proceeding aircraft is rotating, is this because we have to follow noise to 3600' and can not be given a different heading? Say airplane a) fly 300 and b) fly 245 I notice sometimes when you have a light twin (DH8, RJ) they can sometimes get out of our way but it seems very inefficient to have to wait for the following airplane when there is someone say 4 miles back that we could be well out of the way for if given the nod very quickly after the proceeding departure.

In the states it is rare to have such restrictive noise abatement procedures as well, perhaps they should be tweaked to allow better flow in a perfect world!

I know occasionally you will see a 777 use 33R/15L for departure when everyone else is on the 23/24s would it be possible to let the occasional lander do a visual onto 33R? If timed correctly between a couple take offs it could get the odd guy coming in on the LINNG arrival out of the way to allow planes coming from out East and NW it may be hard to work into the terminal environment but could be useful on SKC days where a visual may reduce your separation requirements and having a few less planes per hour coming in for the 24s.

Finally a last question, months ago I was landing on 06R with a LOT 787 taking off before me, they were given a few hints to hurry up and they finally got away as we were very short final. We (an A321 I believe it was) ended up getting rocked very hard by their jet blast. Is there any requirement behind a heavy for a jet blast separation? I am aware of wake separation but perhaps with the new high bypass engines the jet blast covers that much more of an area, we got it down okay but it went from a dead calm night into almost going around as we arrived!
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cossack
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by cossack »

This might turn into a bit of a rant, but here goes:
I am curious how you guys come up with runway assignments. It has not happened much in the last 6 months (I've noticed a huge improvement) but prior to that there would be two runways designated on the D-ATIS and about 50% of the time (or so it seemed) the third runway is what we would get. In the Airbus we only have 2 runways we can plan for and it resulted in us being heads down madly typing in the third option as we were coming in on the arrival. Again, I've noticed an improvement as of late.
The only time I could imagine you encountering 2 runways advertised and being given a third (without a whole scale runway configuration change being involved) is at about 9:30pm. Say we've been landing 23 and 24L and departing 23 and 24R. The operation downgrades when demand subsides usually to land 24R depart 23. If you happen to be about 100 miles away at this time, this may affect you.
As far as moving planes in and out faster, I know the manops are much more restrictive than in the US so perhaps it is what is holding you back but am curious about what can be done to speed things up. I have found in Toronto it is rare to have a visual departure where we could get cleared to depart right when the proceeding aircraft is rotating, is this because we have to follow noise to 3600' and can not be given a different heading? Say airplane a) fly 300 and b) fly 245 I notice sometimes when you have a light twin (DH8, RJ) they can sometimes get out of our way but it seems very inefficient to have to wait for the following airplane when there is someone say 4 miles back that we could be well out of the way for if given the nod very quickly after the proceeding departure.
Visual departures are not yet approved for use at YYZ. We can turn all props and there is a list of the jets that are turnable by tower too. We could fill the sky with departures if there was the right mix of traffic but there seldom is and how many times have you heard someone be cleared for take off to see them still barely moving toward the runway? Its about performance on your side too, not just ours.
In the states it is rare to have such restrictive noise abatement procedures as well, perhaps they should be tweaked to allow better flow in a perfect world!
Take that up with the GTA that's their domain. We just apply the noise rules that they write.
I am curious how you guys come up with runway assignments. It has not happened much in the last 6 months (I've noticed a huge improvement) but prior to that there would be two runways designated on the D-ATIS and about 50% of the time (or so it seemed) the third runway is what we would get. In the Airbus we only have 2 runways we can plan for and it resulted in us being heads down madly typing in the third option as we were coming in on the arrival. Again, I've noticed an improvement as of late.

As far as moving planes in and out faster, I know the manops are much more restrictive than in the US so perhaps it is what is holding you back but am curious about what can be done to speed things up. I have found in Toronto it is rare to have a visual departure where we could get cleared to depart right when the proceeding aircraft is rotating, is this because we have to follow noise to 3600' and can not be given a different heading? Say airplane a) fly 300 and b) fly 245 I notice sometimes when you have a light twin (DH8, RJ) they can sometimes get out of our way but it seems very inefficient to have to wait for the following airplane when there is someone say 4 miles back that we could be well out of the way for if given the nod very quickly after the proceeding departure.

In the states it is rare to have such restrictive noise abatement procedures as well, perhaps they should be tweaked to allow better flow in a perfect world!

I know occasionally you will see a 777 use 33R/15L for departure when everyone else is on the 23/24s would it be possible to let the occasional lander do a visual onto 33R? If timed correctly between a couple take offs it could get the odd guy coming in on the LINNG arrival out of the way to allow planes coming from out East and NW it may be hard to work into the terminal environment but could be useful on SKC days where a visual may reduce your separation requirements and having a few less planes per hour coming in for the 24s.
The terminal environment would be the easy part! The timing involved on the ground and the penalty for those taxying around is too much to permit ad-hoc arrivals. Ad-hoc departures from 33R (prop types) is relatively easy. 33R jet departures and especially 15L departures, takes a lot of coordination between all of the controllers in the cab and Terminal to put the gaps in 3 runway's of traffic in the right sequence to permit the 15L departure. These aircraft need it for performance and so we accommodate them but they may still incur a delay. The wheels of coordination are put in motion as soon as it starts to push back, coordinating where the holes will be. Should they miss the coordinated hole, it may be some time before another can be made.
Finally a last question, months ago I was landing on 06R with a LOT 787 taking off before me, they were given a few hints to hurry up and they finally got away as we were very short final. We (an A321 I believe it was) ended up getting rocked very hard by their jet blast. Is there any requirement behind a heavy for a jet blast separation? I am aware of wake separation but perhaps with the new high bypass engines the jet blast covers that much more of an area, we got it down okay but it went from a dead calm night into almost going around as we arrived!
There is no wake turbulence separation between a departure and an arrival on the same runway. There are runway separation requirements in this scenario but wake turbulence does not form any part of it. He needs to be airborne before you cross the threshold. If you think its too close, you can elect to go around. If we think the prescribed runway separation will exist, we will clear you to land. Its down to performance again.

A few points:
If you're landing on a mixed-mode runway expect a late landing clearance every time, then you won't be surprised.

Sometimes (more often than you'd imagine) there is less space to get the departure out in than is comfortable, but we make it work, but it takes the effort and willingness of all involved.

Crossing the marker at 170 makes your workload high we know, but check-in on time or even a mile early to get the picture from tower. "Slow to final, departing traffic".

NADP1 slows down the departure rate. We need to give Departure 3 miles in trail. If you're flying the NADP1 your speed over the ground is less than optimum and the subsequent departure will wait an extra 10-15 seconds. These add up through the course of a day.

After landing 06R/24L you may get held for a few minutes. Don't bug the tower as they're doing their best to move as many aircraft as possible. When you are given the crossing, get across quickly and do what tower tells you on the other side so that there is space behind you for others crossing.

Don't change frequency on your own...ever! Those signs that went up on the way to 05, 23 and 06L were missed by so many that the tower lost departure space trying to find the first in line who was still on Ground. Stay with tower between 06R/24L and 06L/24R and always wait for the switch on the north side. You may get transferred straight to apron, or be given some specific taxy route to avoid traffic. If tower is crossing 4 or 5 at once it will be busy, don't make it worse by switching on your own and then wonder why you get shouted at.

Don't switch Ground to Ground on your own. One guy might sound busy but the other Ground has no idea who you are as the electronic flight data strip for you is still with the other guy. That increases how busy both of them now are.

We expect you to use the high speed exits. If you think you can make A on 24R to save a few seconds taxying then great but don't forget there might be somebody 2.5 miles or less behind you just wanting to land. Ask before landing if the exit you're planning will work out for all concerned. Sometimes we specify an exit beyond where you might normally exit. We're doing it for a reason.

We know you have to check in with STOC but try and have someone pay attention on the radio at all times it makes things easier for all concerned.

Help us help you make YYZ a better place to fly through. :smt023
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nbinont
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by nbinont »

Thanks for all the insightful replies cossack!

This might be more of a terminal question than tower question, but here goes, in case you know the answer.

Imagine I'm on a VFR sightseeing flight over Niagara Falls (the water, not the airport) in a single engine light airplane. Now I'd like to go over to city centre direct (or approximately direct) for sightseeing, but need to get to 8000ft for glide distance over the centre of the lake, descending to the shore. Is there a nice way to do this? When should I request this? Should I mark something special on the flight plan? In the air? Sometimes everything goes great. Sometimes I get told to descend to 4000ft before entering class C - so much for my glide distance - at which point I typically hang a left and just keep it within glide from the shore. This typically results in a much longer route, often twice as long, as the altitude (and distance from shore) decreases rapidly as you fly past Pearson on the shoreline.

I realize there's LINNG nearby. Would it be better to plan to enter the TCA east of LINNG? Or Request direct LINNG, direct city centre? Or is the whole thing just really unpleasant from an ATC perspective? If so, what makes it awkward? Is there anything I could do, as a pilot, to make this more feasible for the controllers?
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by Married a Canadian »

If I may add a couple of terminal perspective points to Cossacks answers aswell.

Regarding runways selection...ANY time we go from a dual to a triple..or downgrade from from the triple op will be when you sometimes will be given a runway that was not advertised on the ATIS, usually 06L to 06R/24L to 24R and vice versa. Tower and terminal do try to coordinate times of the day to triple well in advance. It will however just depend on the where you are in the sky sometimes. There will always be one plane that gets the awkward change, when traffic is continuous it is impossible to keep it constant for everyone.
I have found in Toronto it is rare to have a visual departure where we could get cleared to depart right when the proceeding aircraft is rotating, is this because we have to follow noise to 3600' and can not be given a different heading? Say airplane a) fly 300 and b) fly 245 I notice sometimes when you have a light twin (DH8, RJ) they can sometimes get out of our way but it seems very inefficient to have to wait for the following airplane when there is someone say 4 miles back that we could be well out of the way for if given the nod very quickly after the proceeding departure.
Tower also has to give the terminal something to work with for enroute spacing. Cossack is right in that it is possible to just fill the sky with planes but that is not going to help you when you get wheels up and are inside the guy who is ahead of you but going the same route and the next sector needs 7 miles in trail. Tower can only jet turn when a/c are not going the same route....they utilise it well when able (a/c type dependent) but they can't do it when everyone is going the same way.
I know occasionally you will see a 777 use 33R/15L for departure when everyone else is on the 23/24s would it be possible to let the occasional lander do a visual onto 33R? If timed correctly between a couple take offs it could get the odd guy coming in on the LINNG arrival out of the way to allow planes coming from out East and NW it may be hard to work into the terminal environment but could be useful on SKC days where a visual may reduce your separation requirements and having a few less planes per hour coming in for the 24s
It is as difficult for the terminal as it is for the tower. The part that makes it difficult is as you said "if timed correctly". You can't do it without a LOT of prior coordinating (as Cossack said)....and you still have to build in space on final for it which defeats the purpose of taking a guy out of the 24 sequence. When we are in a triple on either end, the visual approach is an awesome tool for us...I believe we can run a 65 arrival rate (correct me if I am wrong Cossack?)...which is pretty impressive without having to worry about visuals on a cross runway operation. The new airspace allows for a larger sequencing area into the terminal airspace now...so there is no problem with a high arrival rate...if the weather conditions allow it...we can do it.

Last point about noise abatement....you will not find many air traffic controllers that disagree with you there...but the GTAA are the noise bods....not a lot we can do about it...sorry.
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cossack
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by cossack »

Married a Canadian wrote:When we are in a triple on either end, the visual approach is an awesome tool for us...I believe we can run a 65 arrival rate (correct me if I am wrong Cossack?)...which is pretty impressive without having to worry about visuals on a cross runway operation.
I believe the combined rate for the triple is 130/hour, so your 65 arrival rate (split 40 on the south and 25 on the north) looks about right. We seldom have demand beyond 110/hour though.

On the subject of visual departures: we would obviously fan the departures out based on filed route and, as now, not cut off preceding departures on the same route, but the problem remains noise abatement. Without a relaxing of current rules any benefits from visual separations will be much reduced.
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by Married a Canadian »

nbinont
I realize there's LINNG nearby. Would it be better to plan to enter the TCA east of LINNG? Or Request direct LINNG, direct city centre? Or is the whole thing just really unpleasant from an ATC perspective? If so, what makes it awkward?
I can answer part of your query. The problem you have is the altitude you need for glide distance (8000ft you mentioned)...and where you are in relation to YYZ. Linng represents part of the problem as the arrivals to YYZ from the south come in at that point. Arrival control can descend to 8000ft over this point. Once you come in east of Linng you are now in departure airspace and are conflicting with YYZ departures that are filed V252, Eastbound (VERDO, DEDKI) and you are also conflicting with Porter departures off the island.
The reason you would be given 4000ft before entering class C is to keep you clear of this traffic. From a purely priority standpoint you can't be in a position that will impact YYZ and YTZ operations (unless you are the cops or some hi tec photo flight).
Unfortunately a single engine light airplane that wants a higher altitude within 20 miles of YYZ for sightseeing purposes is not going to be given much priority if there are departures or arrivals in the vicinity (and there usually are). VFR or not....there are still the wake issue to contend with....and a long haul heavy might not take too kindly to being kept low due to YYZ arrivals AND sightseeing traffic.

Low level round the shoreline will usually be the route you are given. The only other thing I can suggest is to try Saturday or Sunday mornings when it is quieter.
The satellite controllers might be able to give you some better options.


Cossack
On the subject of visual departures: we would obviously fan the departures out based on filed route and, as now, not cut off preceding departures on the same route, but the problem remains noise abatement. Without a relaxing of current rules any benefits from visual separations will be much reduced.
I know you would...and you guys do.....and in doing so (noise abatement or not)...it sort of defeats the purpose of visual departures if 3+ aircraft are all going the same way. You aren't going to give turns and headings for your expedition knowing that it ain't helping us much. I think some pilots forget that what they think they gain on the ground they can lose in the air (and vice versa of course).
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nbinont
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by nbinont »

Thanks for the insightful answer Married a Canadian. I didn't realize the dual conflict for arrivals (at LINNG) and YYZ+YTZ departures (east of LINNG).

How about west of LINNG, say inbound on YYZ radial 170, for 7000ft over the lake midpoint descending to 2000ft over the shore? (then onwards to city centre along the shoreline). What are the main conflicts with this route?
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by photofly »

Is there a problem with flying the lakeshore? It's 10 minutes extra flying. Or else take a life raft and jackets.
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cossack
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by cossack »

nbinont wrote:How about west of LINNG, say inbound on YYZ radial 170, for 7000ft over the lake midpoint descending to 2000ft over the shore? (then onwards to city centre along the shoreline). What are the main conflicts with this route?
The departures from 24R turn left and head south then south east or east climbing to 7000 right where you want to be. :rolleyes: Take a look at flightaware to get an idea of the traffic flows. Unless its really quiet, just take the shoreline. :idea:
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nbinont
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by nbinont »

Ok, shoreline it is! Thanks cossack!
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by Married a Canadian »

nbinont

Yep....sorry but anything from 4000 and above within 20 miles of YYZ in a single engined low performer....there is nowhere for you to be that is going to lead to anything but confliction.
As arrival can descend to 8000ft in their airspace...it means departure owns up to 7000ft...and when busy we use everything from 3000 up to 7000. Imagine a Porter going to Chicago midway off the island, A Q400 off YYZ going V252, Eastbound heavy jet off 24R and then a V265 jet getting airborne. 4 different tracks...different altitudes...and then a single engine prop at 7000ft in the middle of it who needs descent. The language would be fairly choice I reckon.
On the 24s as Cossack said...anything going V265, V252 and Eastbound will conflict with you when west of Linng.
On the 06s anything that goes V265 and V443 is be turning into your path.
When Porter are descending into the island from their southern destinations they HAVE to be out of the way of YYZ departures before entering the terminal airspace. There is not enough room to vector jets and props all over the sky within 26 miles of the airport to avoid traffic that wants to climb and then descend again AND is not a high performer.

I'm sorry in this scenario that it seems that YYZ is a bit inflexible...but for sure if you get below 4000ft and use the satellite sectors...you will find there are a LOT of good sightseeing routes to be had in and around the terminal airspace...and I am pretty sure that some have been discussed on this website by the flying community.
From my experience back in the UK..YYZ is a LOT more flexible than Heathrow....with their Class A zone and all!
Thankyou for the questions though....it helps both sides understand more what is out there and what can and can't be done so easily.
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by Rookie50 »

Got possibly a silly question. Starting some hope air flights occsaionally to / from Ytz from points north, filing IFR, SE piston. Is a direct clearance possible right over 33 R or L, if not in use? Would save some time to SSM / sudbury. I would guess likely not for separation, thought I'd throw it out anyway.
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by cossack »

Porter doesn't get that route in a Q400, so a non-starter I'm afraid.
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by Married a Canadian »

Got possibly a silly question. Starting some hope air flights occsaionally to / from Ytz from points north, filing IFR, SE piston. Is a direct clearance possible right over 33 R or L, if not in use? Would save some time to SSM / sudbury. I would guess likely not for separation, thought I'd throw it out anyway
When Porter first started up their flights to the northern destinations we tried afew combinations of routes when inbound to see if we could make a more "direct" work. The problem was where you/they needed to be descentwise when inbound from the North was always in conflict with YYZ on either E/W configuration (you are in the middle of the arrival box on the 24s...and in the middle of the departure path on the 06s).
IFR over the 33s also means stopping YYZ departures and making a gap in the arrivals...something that won't be done unless it is a priority flight.

Departing YTZ is never a problem...we just climb you over the lake before turning you Northbound. Getting you direct once airborne would be a simple matter of coordinating with the enroute (so long as you have Flight planned something higher than say 16000). It is actually easier to get you climbing and on course there than it would be off YYZ as we have more room to climb you.
Inbound...sorry but direct has been tried and didn't work so well. If you know any "Air Bravo" or Porter guys...they can maybe give you some tips on their best routings.
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

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Married a Canadian wrote:
Got possibly a silly question. Starting some hope air flights occsaionally to / from Ytz from points north, filing IFR, SE piston. Is a direct clearance possible right over 33 R or L, if not in use? Would save some time to SSM / sudbury. I would guess likely not for separation, thought I'd throw it out anyway
When Porter first started up their flights to the northern destinations we tried afew combinations of routes when inbound to see if we could make a more "direct" work. The problem was where you/they needed to be descentwise when inbound from the North was always in conflict with YYZ on either E/W configuration (you are in the middle of the arrival box on the 24s...and in the middle of the departure path on the 06s).
IFR over the 33s also means stopping YYZ departures and making a gap in the arrivals...something that won't be done unless it is a priority flight.

Departing YTZ is never a problem...we just climb you over the lake before turning you Northbound. Getting you direct once airborne would be a simple matter of coordinating with the enroute (so long as you have Flight planned something higher than say 16000). It is actually easier to get you climbing and on course there than it would be off YYZ as we have more room to climb you.
Inbound...sorry but direct has been tried and didn't work so well. If you know any "Air Bravo" or Porter guys...they can maybe give you some tips on their best routings.
Can I get a (GA, SE Piston we're talking) climbout either West close to the lakeshore; or a circling climb reasonably close to YTZ, BPOC?

East Departures from CZBA; they send me over the lake too -- have to moniter that but don't think there's another way while maintaining the MEA and separation. Bear in mind I only usually cruise at 7-8000. I always file IFR for longer CC's.
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by Married a Canadian »

Bear in mind I only usually cruise at 7-8000
Unfortunately therein lies the problem if you are departing from YTZ and wanting to go north in a single engine prop.
On either east/west configuration at YYZ the arrivals can descend to 8000ft in their airspace (lower once in the early descent areas and arrival box) and departure can climb to 7000ft under the arrival airspace.

There is no "direct" route on either configuration northbound that wouldn't put you in conflict with either departure or arrival traffic. On the 24s you would be going over the arrival box with the straight in fixes being cleared to 8000 and 7000ft...and you also have the traffic that is being sequenced into the downwind from the North, West and South descending from 8000ft.
On the 06s...departure jets are climbing to 5000ft (unless jet turned) before talking to departure...you would have to be above 5000ft before expecting a turn northbound off the island. It would actually be easier on the 06s than on the 24s though as you don't have to be climbed over the lake.

It is not totally beyond the realms of possibility for 7000-8000ft off the island Northbound IFR to work. I would just say that 9 times out of 10 you would most likely get kept low and routed via KZ before being climbed as this keeps you clear of Pearson traffic.

Regarding your comment about departing ZBA. If you are going West then there should be no problem. If you are going north or north east bound you won't be climbed till north of the YYZ arrival or departure traffic and you will be pointed north to keep clear of Pearson. East or South East....it will be over the lake everytime....climbing along the shoreline puts you in conflict with the traffic mentioned above.
Hope this helps some.
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by Rookie50 »

Thanks, it does. Not unexpected responses as I'm reasonablly familiar with yyz traffic requirements. Thanks again.
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Re: Have questions for YYZ Tower? Ask them here!

Post by boogs82 »

Is it still possible these days to arrange a tower tour to actually see what goes on in the life of ATS?
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