Considering Change from Airlines to ATC

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Hi everybody. If some of you have read my posts before, you'll know I fly a Dash 8 for one of Canada's regional airlines. While I do enjoy my job, I find the multiple nights away from home really takes a toll on my quality of life. Missing Christmas every year, birthdays, etc can get tiring after a while, so a job change might be in order. Wanting to stay in the aviation field, I always thought growing up if I couldn't be a pilot, I'd want to be a VFR controller, and I am starting to lean more in that direction. So, as a pilot who knows nothing about the world on the other side other side of the mike, I have a few questions that the "Take Charge" website on NavCanada doesn't answer.

1. If currently live in London and would like to remain in SW Ontario. If I get past the online tests and do to the assessment section at the YYZ ACC, and make it all the way through the process and get offered a position, will it be located at a tower within the YYZ sector (or the ACC itself) or could I be posted anywhere in the country? At which point are you made aware of which locations they are hiring for?

2. For any commercial pilots who have made the switch to ATC, was it a difficult process? Did your previous aviation knowledge help with the training?

3. What are schedules like at a tower location with regards to days worked per month, vacation, etc? (I'm aware some towers are 24 hours and some are not).

4. Is there high demand for certain towers/locations over others? As I said I live in London so a YQG, YXU, YKF or YHM tower would be an obviously preferred choice if I made it through the training process.

5. For the 4-6 months of classroom training for a tower controller at the YYZ ACC, I see that you have to find your own room and board. What have others done where you don't live within a commutable daily driving distance from the training centre?

6. I've read on Avcanada about check-out rates being only 10% at YYZ tower but higher at others for ab initio candidates. If you do not check-out, are you given the opportunity for more training or working at a less intensive tower, or is it one failed check-out, you're out of the program?

7. Can anyone speak to the lifestyle and working conditions as a tower controller? Do you enjoy your jobs? Is it a fun place to work?

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I go along. Thanks for your input!

[TheJudge]

I don't work in a tower so I skipped some of your questions.. hopefully this helps in any case.

1. If currently live in London and would like to remain in SW Ontario. If I get past the online tests and do to the assessment section at the YYZ ACC, and make it all the way through the process and get offered a position, will it be located at a tower within the YYZ sector (or the ACC itself) or could I be posted anywhere in the country? At which point are you made aware of which locations they are hiring for?

If you apply in the YYZ FIR, and are ultimately given a training offer by said FIR, your first positing will be somewhere in that region. As a VFR (tower) trainee, you tend to find out what specific location you will be posted at towards the end of the simulator training. You can (begin) seniority bidding to other locations/jobs after you have been qualified for 3 years if you so desire.

2. For any commercial pilots who have made the switch to ATC, was it a difficult process? Did your previous aviation knowledge help with the training?

Was it difficult? By far the most challenging undertaking of my life. Previous aviation knowledge and experience was definately helpful, but you need to be careful not to let it make you overconfident. There is an incredible amount of additional information you will need to absorb.

In some cases previous knowledge can even get you into trouble if you let it. But in my view having background does help overall.

5. For the 4-6 months of classroom training for a tower controller at the YYZ ACC, I see that you have to find your own room and board. What have others done where you don't live within a commutable daily driving distance from the training centre?

You'll likely need to move somewhere closer to the ACC temporarily.

6. I've read on Avcanada about check-out rates being only 10% at YYZ tower but higher at others for ab initio candidates. If you do not check-out, are you given the opportunity for more training or working at a less intensive tower, or is it one failed check-out, you're out of the program?

It depends on timing, the reason(s) for the CT, company needs, and other factors. I've heard of it going both ways.

[robshelle]

Check out the thread curious about being a Vfr that is on this board, it should answer some lifestyle questions. Since you have a family, I highly recommend the change. Also, during the application process do not let them talk you into IFR, you may get into training quicker, but lower checkout rates, and a lot longer until you start collecting a pay heck.

Robbie Benusic
CYEG Tower

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Thanks for the replies so far! I'm still a little hazy on some things though. If you do not pass your check-out, is that it for you? For example, after all the training at my airline, we do a flight test. If we fail that test, we are given additional training to bring us up to the standard and are then allowed to do the test again. Is it the same for ATC or is it one failed attempt and you're out? I'm curious as to why they would potentially start people initially in IFR if the success rate is as poor as I've read on these boards. Why not start people at a tower with a higher chance of success and then have the option to move to the IFR side of things once you have some experience?

I did find your CBA on the CATCA website and found good information on rates of pay, holidays, shift options, etc. but still have a question. I see rates of pay for ATC-0 (I assume that is a trainee), and ATC-1 through 7. Does this refer to the tower group? For example, YHM or YKF would be ATC-2 and YXU would be ATC-3 for pay purposes?

Are you able to defer accepting a position? As you said Robbie, "don't let them talk you info IFR." If I was successful in getting through the program and only IFR is available, can I delay my ab-inito training and wait for a position at a tower when one becomes available? Could I also defer an offer of employment until a specific tower becomes available?

Again thanks for any input and feel free to PM me any additional information!

[robshelle]

Its been a long time since I've applied, but I do believe that you can choose which pools you want to be placed in (FSS, VFR or IFR). They may try to tell you that it could be a year wait for VFR, but 6 months for IFR as an example, but just stay VFR if that is what you want. Nothing wrong with going IFR, just there is less check out percentages there due to the nature of the beast. All IFR units are ATC 6, supervisors and such are ATC 7. Towers range from ATC 1-6, some examples of 3's are CYEG, CYWG, CYHZ, 4's are CYYJ, CYOW, 6's are CYYZ, CYUL, CYVR, CYYC. Not to familiar with the airports around Ontario for the lower scales.

Each units has its own training program, but you will have to write unit specific written exam, and pass it of course. There may be a final check ride with a different On the Job Instructor, but at that point it is usually a given that you'll check out, kind of like flight tests, your FI wouldn't send you unless they think you were ready. Training is an ongoing thing, you could be Cease Trained at any time, but it should come as no surprise if you are struggling. Training on the job is usually broken down into 4 phases, with you being required to meet standards for the end of that phase. If you are not reaching them, the training group will usually extend the length of that phase in order to reach those goals. If you are still not achieving the desired results, then CT's will be looked at. We do train to succeed, believe it or not with the rumors of the abysmal check out rates, but it costs a lot of money to train each person to qualification, and we don't just terminate people for failure to reach training goals as quickly as they used to in the Transport Canada days. At my unit, the people who haven't checked out were people who were argumentative with their OJI's(and I'm not talking polite discussions on interpretations of MANOPS and CARS, that is encouraged), didn't put in any effort during their training, had too much stuff going on in their personal life to devote all their mental energy to the job, or for some reason were able to slip through the cracks and shouldn't have been training ATC in the first place. If you do make it past basic into a tower, and train almost to completion before being CT'd, you may be able to get reposted to another unit, it does happen but it depends on the circumstances, but don't count on it.

The reason that ATC does train people directly into IFR is that a lot of VFR controllers like the lifestyle, looking out windows, and decide that they enjoy it more than the money that they could potentially make (think regional DHC8 pilot compared to Overseas Longhauler). Also, 2/3 of ATC is IFR controllers, that would require a lot of flow through to make it happen. When I was hired, I was called an IFR Streamer, meaning even though I went to a VFT tower first and qualified, my job wasn't secure until I actually qualified IFR. That didn't happen, but at the time they needed controllers so I got to keep my job in my old tower, got lucky. The stream program was a good idea in general, but it was not implemented very well, and was abused by management to fill holes in VFR towers temporarily, so it got axed.

Robbie Benusic
CYEG Tower

[cyeg66]

^wait a minute, Rob. It's all become very clear. You knew they'd take you back if you didn't qualify in the north boards, didn't you? What, you didn't want the glamorous job of controlling a few planes at a time over the arctic and having a computer give you a conflict prediction 3 hours away? There's more to it than that, I'm just ribbing you. Besides, you YEG guys should be getting a pay raise soon with the 'bump' in traffic you're experiencing (the only important tower that's up in traffic).

As to the OP, IFR isn't the end of the world. I went straight in to that (was finishing univ degree at the time of transitioning) and never looked back. If we were clairvoyant, it would make things easier when making these big decisions in life. Unfortunately, the system is, even now, still a bit broken because of the way trainees are allocated. If they're doing really well on the basic course, they're placed on the harder courses (more complex unit), therefore inadvertently lowering their chance for success. For example, not to appear callous, one course's trainees was split between a busy terminal environment and (let's just say) a less complex radar environment. Result, the "better" students never succeeded in qualifying while the low hanging fruit managed to get licensed in the other sector and now benefit from a career job and good pay conditions, driving a Beemer or having a closet full of Coach bags. Is that fair? You be the judge. All that to say, it would be great to have insider knowledge into which units trainees will potentially go. The pay's all the same, but complexity certainly varies a lot. Many within the union harbour ill feelings towards that, but that's a discussion for another day.

It has happened in the past where it was recognized that the trainee was really close but not quite good enough. It was decided in some instances to re-course them elsewhere where they went on to qualify easily. What's important (and Rob alludes to this) is to not be combative/stubborn in your training. Never, ever take out your piloting knowledge and try to use that to disprove your instructor when debating a simple point of discussion. It's nice to have aircraft knowledge, but by no means is it a prerequisite. What you want is to be known by your peers as a good, honest, hard-working guy that your instructor, training supervisor, and other controllers would be willing to go to bat for if ever you find yourself in that "close but not quite good enough" position. Show up in clean clothes, be laid back but still professional (i.e. don't be at the center of every campfire story), and try to adapt quickly to changes. While training, you quickly realize that almost everyone does things differently. What's important is to learn to do it the way your OJI does it. He/she's the only person that matters at the time. Don't get discouraged if you have to work with someone else (OJI called in sick). You'll see they do things slightly differently. Take their criticism with a grain of salt and develop a thick skin. How do we say, "grin and bear it". Instructors aren't there to be your buddy, they're there to make you a damn good controller. That's helped me succeed each of the 3 times I've trained. Hope this helps. Good luck.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Thanks for the great replies! One more thing that is drawing me to controlling is the positive attitude in this forum. On the Jazz, AC or WJ forum when people ask about working there, all the responses are doom and gloom, get out of flying altogether, etc. But on the ATC forum, for the most part, people seem to actually enjoy their jobs and encourage others to join the profession. That's a big +1 in my books!

I did a tour of my local tower as a "class trip" when I finished my pilot's license, but that was almost 15 years ago. I'm thinking of calling them up and asking if on a quiet day I could come by and take a look around or just to chat about the pros and cons of the job.

I think I've made up my mind though and I'll be doing the online application in the coming days.

Keep the good replies coming!

[robshelle]

If you go to a tower, or ACC for a visit, with your experience do not ask for a quiet time. Quiet times are great tour times for normal people with very limited aviation background knowledge. As a pilot, and a potential ATC Trainee, you should see it when there is traffic, you may not be able to get in a lot of questions while watching a busy position, but it'll give you a better picture of what we really do, and more than likely you'll be allowed to borrow a headset and plug in and monitor the frequency. Worst case scenario, you'll be babysat in the back by another controller or (worse yet) a supervisor who wants to chew the fat.

As to positivity on the boards, it really is hard to complain for the most part about our wages and working conditions, especially seeing the downhill slide coming for pilots. (its kinda hard for ATC to start up new companies just to drop wages) We are starting to see it a bit of it though with the new pension plan for new hires. It is still good, you'll get 1.1% per year up to 35 years of the average of your best 5 years as opposed to 2% for us already in the system, but you won't be paying into the pension plan and can use the money that you would normally have paid into it to put into your own RRSP.s (last year my contributions to the pension plan was1 almost 10000$, as an example of what you could be putting into an RRSP instead of the company pension plan) The biggest negative of the new pension plan is that after retirement, your pension might not be indexed to inflation(at the pension plan's boards decisions), whereas ours is, that could end up being quite a lot of lost growth if you live an extra 30+ years after retirement.

Robbie Benusic
CYEG Tower

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I wouldn't have thought to go during a busy time as I wouldn't want to be a bother if it was busy, but I'll take your advice!

I applied today as well and completed the online application and 2 exams. And now the waiting game begins in the hopes of being called for an in-person assessment!

[Parth]

Demand in southern ontario is greatest at CYYZ and CYTZ. But you could be posted anywhere.

If you do pass the online test, send out a quick email to whatever HR contact is listed on the site. There is an assessment coming up in October and you'll want to get on that (the next one probably won't be for another 6-8 months).

Good luck.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Demand in southern ontario is greatest at CYYZ and CYTZ.

When you say this do you mean YYZ and YTS are short staffed so I'd likely be posted there first, or the opposite in that they are highly desired postings so it is unlikely I'd be posted there?

Send out a quick email to whatever HR contact is listed on the site. There is an assessment coming up in October and you'll want to get on that.

Thanks for the tip. I'll be sure to do that once I get the results in 2-3 days.

[hydro]

When you say this do you mean YYZ and YTS are short staffed so I'd likely be posted there first

Yep, that is what he means. More likely to get sent to those two sites. Other spots get trainees too, but not as many.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I got my online testing results back with a green light, so now I'm hoping I'm invited for the assessment Oct. 30th in YYZ. I was going to email someone from HR but all I can find with regards to a contact for ATS services information is a 1-800 number under "Recruitment" on the NavCanada "Contact Us" page. Should I give them a call? I know a lot of employers have a strict "no phone calls please" policy.

As a side note about getting a tour of a tower, I am in YYZ Wednesday and Thursday afternoon. If there are any YYZ controllers on here, could you PM me the number of someone I could call to arrange a tour? I'd call the tower myself but I don't have a CFS with the number handy!

[170 to xray]

DHC, I'm in a very similar situation. I'm getting tired of no schedule, empty promises and missing everything. After 21 years in the air I think I need a change. Can we get an update on your yours?

[DHC-1 Jockey]

DHC, I'm in a very similar situation. I'm getting tired of no schedule, empty promises and missing everything. After 21 years in the air I think I need a change. Can we get an update on your yours?

I passed the first interview in early December and am now waiting for the final in-person interview. I know of someone who was just offered a course, most likely starting in September. I hope I can get my interview done soon enough that I could be placed in that course.

I first did the online application back in September 2013, so as of today I'm 4 months in to the hiring process with only the final stage to go. I've been told by the recruitment coordinators that they will most likely be conducting in-person interviews for YYZ region in February or March.

I've paid a few visits to the guys in YXU tower over the past few months when we'd have a break in between legs and after every time I visit I'm more and more sure that this is the career for me. Everyone had positive attitudes and most of the controllers I spoke to were originally planning on being airline pilots. Some even left the flying profession to be a controller and they all say they don't regret it one bit and they all recommended it as a great job. This is in stark contrast to the pilots I work with who are telling their own children to avoid being a commercial pilot like it's the plague. When I hear 30 year veterans and new captains alike saying things like this, it really makes you wonder about where the pilot profession is going.

For me, it's all about lifestyle. If I can make more being a controller, be home every night and work with people who actually enjoy their job, it sounds like the place to be!