Ok, a question. I'm on a IFR plan, radar coverage. When I hit the limit of that coverage, which is near the boundary of the FIR, rather than say" OK in xx miles, call zzz center on 125.whatever", this guy says, "GABC, radar service terminated".
That's it. I'm unfamiliar, and have to ask -- Uh...who do I call up next -- then that info is given to me. I'd simply like to remain in radar coverage on an IFR plan!
What, you guys don't get along with the neighboring FIR? Or just don't want to be helpful with the next Freq and when? Annoying. And no, it was very quiet so traffic not a factor. Customer service, anyone?
Hand off one FIR to another. Or not.
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako
Hand off to next FIR.
Posted this in Ats, but want to hear from pilots.
Ok, a question. I'm on a IFR plan, up pretty high, in radar coverage. When I hit the limit of that coverage, which is near the boundary of the FIR, rather than say" OK in xx miles, call zzz center on 125.whatever", this guy calls me, up , no preamble, says, "GABC, radar service terminated".
That's it. I'm unfamiliar, and have to ask -- Uh...who do I call up next -- then that info is given to me. I'd simply like to remain in radar coverage on an IFR plan! Yes, i know its on my Lo, before that's brought up.
What's the deal, you guys don't get along with the neighboring FIR? Or just don't want to be helpful with the next Freq and when? Annoying. And no, it was very quiet so traffic not a factor. Customer service, anyone?
Yet another thing that wouldn't likely happen in the US, at least not with me.
Ok, a question. I'm on a IFR plan, up pretty high, in radar coverage. When I hit the limit of that coverage, which is near the boundary of the FIR, rather than say" OK in xx miles, call zzz center on 125.whatever", this guy calls me, up , no preamble, says, "GABC, radar service terminated".
That's it. I'm unfamiliar, and have to ask -- Uh...who do I call up next -- then that info is given to me. I'd simply like to remain in radar coverage on an IFR plan! Yes, i know its on my Lo, before that's brought up.
What's the deal, you guys don't get along with the neighboring FIR? Or just don't want to be helpful with the next Freq and when? Annoying. And no, it was very quiet so traffic not a factor. Customer service, anyone?
Yet another thing that wouldn't likely happen in the US, at least not with me.
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Notta Simfalt
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Re: Hand off to next FIR.
When we get that, It seems that he's just letting you know, he can't provide radar. It's not a handoff. He'll give you the next freq at the appropriate time. radar coverage and vhf range are not necessarily coming from the same place.
Re: Hand off to next FIR.
I don't think so, because when I queried, he said I could call up the next FIR in a handful of miles. So it sounded like a termination then of comm and radar service, but without any handoff info volunteered.Notta Simfalt wrote:When we get that, It seems that he's just letting you know, he can't provide radar. It's not a handoff. He'll give you the next freq at the appropriate time. radar coverage and vhf range are not necessarily coming from the same place.
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Notta Simfalt
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Re: Hand off to next FIR.
I would say if you're in controlled airspace he has to give you a clearance out of controlled. He can only do this himself or by handing you to the next guy.
Recently, a flight close to us got "no radar coverage" and went over to 126.7. Trouble was he was at 280 between YYQ and YRT. Center had us look for him and bring him back on freq.
I think he just didn't feel like explaining or even momentarily forgot in your case.
Recently, a flight close to us got "no radar coverage" and went over to 126.7. Trouble was he was at 280 between YYQ and YRT. Center had us look for him and bring him back on freq.
I think he just didn't feel like explaining or even momentarily forgot in your case.
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complexintentions
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Re: Hand off to next FIR.
"Radar Service Terminated" is pretty self-explanatory. They are no longer offering radar separation because they are no longer able to see you on radar. Notta Simfalt has it right, the radar coverage just ran out before you reached the FIR boundary. No drama, no conspiracy.
Not sure why you seem pretty eager to find fault with ATC?
Not sure why you seem pretty eager to find fault with ATC?
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Panama Jack
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Re: Hand off to next FIR.
Basic IFR knowledge.
Now you will need to do those position reports at the mandatory reporting points. Depending on how the airspace is carved up, after you report over one point or another he will likely give you a hand-off. Should all be in the AIM.
Yes, unlikely to happen in the Contiguous US because, you've likely noticed, it is a much more developed country. Not too many people living more than 200 miles of the Canada/US border and radar coverage is not provided through the entire country.
Canada also has lots of NDB's because Canadian pilots are sentimental about them, but thats another story.
Now you will need to do those position reports at the mandatory reporting points. Depending on how the airspace is carved up, after you report over one point or another he will likely give you a hand-off. Should all be in the AIM.
Yes, unlikely to happen in the Contiguous US because, you've likely noticed, it is a much more developed country. Not too many people living more than 200 miles of the Canada/US border and radar coverage is not provided through the entire country.
Canada also has lots of NDB's because Canadian pilots are sentimental about them, but thats another story.
Re: Hand off one FIR to another. Or not.
After you were terminated did you have to fly for awhile before you'd switch frequencies? e.g. Would he have time to get back to you with frequency/reporting info before you lose comm coverage?
Many people in my area may say "ABC,radar service terminated, contact the next Centre 50 East of XYZ", and then call the next centre and tell them where you will call. If it's a common/agreed upon point the coordination may not occur.
Others may terminate you without other instructions. Next they call the next centre and coordinate a reporting point and/or frequency. Then they'd go back to you in a minute or two with the information. On your query (before coordinating) they'd give you instructions. They can always change the instructions in a minute or two if the next sector wanted something different.
Many people in my area may say "ABC,radar service terminated, contact the next Centre 50 East of XYZ", and then call the next centre and tell them where you will call. If it's a common/agreed upon point the coordination may not occur.
Others may terminate you without other instructions. Next they call the next centre and coordinate a reporting point and/or frequency. Then they'd go back to you in a minute or two with the information. On your query (before coordinating) they'd give you instructions. They can always change the instructions in a minute or two if the next sector wanted something different.
Re: Hand off one FIR to another. Or not.
Rookie, I think you may be confusing radar service with air traffic control. Were you still in controlled airspace when this happened?
Just because radar coverage is lost, doesn't mean that you are no longer in that controller's airspace. When I'm IFR in controlled airspace and I hear radar service terminated it means just that and the answer is "roger". The next frequency change may be quite a way away.
Good for you for seeking clarification when something didn't make sense, but the problem may be your understanding of the system, not the controller's instructions.
Just because radar coverage is lost, doesn't mean that you are no longer in that controller's airspace. When I'm IFR in controlled airspace and I hear radar service terminated it means just that and the answer is "roger". The next frequency change may be quite a way away.
Good for you for seeking clarification when something didn't make sense, but the problem may be your understanding of the system, not the controller's instructions.
Re: Hand off one FIR to another. Or not.
Heres another example from a while back. VFR flight following with a discrete code, an area with full radar coverage wall to wall, instead of hand off to next FIR, Controller says radar coverage terminated, squawk 1200. Strange, again no handoff until I asked -- although was VFR so completely different.ahramin wrote:Rookie, I think you may be confusing radar service with air traffic control. Were you still in controlled airspace when this happened?
Just because radar coverage is lost, doesn't mean that you are no longer in that controller's airspace. When I'm IFR in controlled airspace and I hear radar service terminated it means just that and the answer is "roger". The next frequency change may be quite a way away.
Good for you for seeking clarification when something didn't make sense, but the problem may be your understanding of the system, not the controller's instructions.
I get the loss of radar coverage -- but it sounded ( until I queried ) like a termination of ATC service as well from that FIR, which is strange while IFR.
Re: Hand off one FIR to another. Or not.
That makes some sense -- the lack of instructions threw me perhaps.hydro wrote:After you were terminated did you have to fly for awhile before you'd switch frequencies? e.g. Would he have time to get back to you with frequency/reporting info before you lose comm coverage?
Many people in my area may say "ABC,radar service terminated, contact the next Centre 50 East of XYZ", and then call the next centre and tell them where you will call. If it's a common/agreed upon point the coordination may not occur.
Others may terminate you without other instructions. Next they call the next centre and coordinate a reporting point and/or frequency. Then they'd go back to you in a minute or two with the information. On your query (before coordinating) they'd give you instructions. They can always change the instructions in a minute or two if the next sector wanted something different.
Re: Hand off one FIR to another. Or not.
I was in controlled space, on an airway way above the Mea.ahramin wrote:Rookie, I think you may be confusing radar service with air traffic control. Were you still in controlled airspace when this happened?
Just because radar coverage is lost, doesn't mean that you are no longer in that controller's airspace. When I'm IFR in controlled airspace and I hear radar service terminated it means just that and the answer is "roger". The next frequency change may be quite a way away.
Good for you for seeking clarification when something didn't make sense, but the problem may be your understanding of the system, not the controller's instructions.
Re: Hand off one FIR to another. Or not.
@IFR experts:
If your radar service is terminated, you have to start making position reports at mandatory points, right?
If your radar service is terminated, you have to start making position reports at mandatory points, right?
Re: Hand off one FIR to another. Or not.
Exactly photofly, unless you are ADS-C equipped, thank goodness.
Re: Hand off one FIR to another. Or not.
Man, that's old school,
Canada – Nav Canada commissioned operational use of ADS-B in 2009 and is now using it to provide coverage of its northern airspace around Hudson Bay, most of which currently has no radar coverage. The service is also being extended to cover some oceanic areas off the east coast of Canada and Greenland. The service is expected to be later extended to cover the rest of the Canadian Arctic, and to the rest of Canada.
Mandatory by 2020, even for a 182, SSR is limited (junk), PSR is just about gone. Trenton will stay.
Just say "roger" and make your 126.7 clearing call, and listen out for guys like me transiting your altitude
Canada – Nav Canada commissioned operational use of ADS-B in 2009 and is now using it to provide coverage of its northern airspace around Hudson Bay, most of which currently has no radar coverage. The service is also being extended to cover some oceanic areas off the east coast of Canada and Greenland. The service is expected to be later extended to cover the rest of the Canadian Arctic, and to the rest of Canada.
Mandatory by 2020, even for a 182, SSR is limited (junk), PSR is just about gone. Trenton will stay.
Just say "roger" and make your 126.7 clearing call, and listen out for guys like me transiting your altitude
