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Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:56 am
by pelmet
YVR gave us that the other day of of about 3000 feet. Can somebody confirm if we are allowed to exceed 250 knots(or min safe speed) when cleared above 10K. I thought the rules had changed recently.
Re: Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:33 pm
by AOW
If by recently, you mean in 2010, then yes. Effective November 10, 2010:
CARS 602.32 wrote: (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall
(a) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots if the aircraft is below 10,000 feet ASL; or
(b) operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots if the aircraft is below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled aerodrome unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.
(2) A person may operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed greater than the airspeeds referred to in subsection (1) if the aircraft is being operated in accordance with a special flight operations certificate – special aviation event issued pursuant to section 603.02.
(3) If the minimum safe airspeed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the airspeed referred to in subsection (1), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe airspeed.
as opposed to the previous version:
Old version of CARS 602.32 (Valid 2006-2010) wrote:(1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet ASL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots.
(2) No person shall operate an aircraft below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled airport at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.
(3) Notwithstanding subsections (1) and (2), a person may operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed greater than the airspeeds referred to in subsections (1) and (2) where the aircraft is being operated on departure or in accordance with a special flight operations certificate — special aviation event issued pursuant to section 603.02.
(4) Where the minimum safe speed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the speed referred to in subsection (1) or (2), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe speed.
As for what the controller intended, I can't say for sure, but my gut tells me that s/he would not have been upset if you exceeded 250 kts, but they cannot legally ask you to, nor can they give you permission to do so, so I think that you were being given a hint without explicitly breaking any rules. That being said, if you did exceed 250, and somebody called you on it, you have no ground to stand on if you try to say "ATC told me to".
Re: Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:45 pm
by pelmet
So what do they mean when they clear us for a high speed climb?
Re: Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:10 pm
by zulutime
pelmet wrote:So what do they mean when they clear us for a high speed climb?
I may be wrong but I thought the speed limit was for incoming aircraft, not taking off. I don't fly an aircraft that even comes close to 250 kts so perhaps someone here on the forum who does can weigh in.
Re: Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:40 pm
by ahramin
As already stated Pelmet, ATC probably meant that they don't mind if you exceed 250 knots. Perhaps this particular controller isn't aware of the regulation that states you can't.
Re: Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:49 pm
by Braun
As a controller I have yet to speak with another controller who didn't know the 250 below 10000' rule. I doubt it is lack of knowledge. That being said I have no idea what he means by this, I have never heard a controller use this before...
Re: Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:40 pm
by pelmet
Braun wrote:As a controller I have yet to speak with another controller who didn't know the 250 below 10000' rule. I doubt it is lack of knowledge. That being said I have no idea what he means by this, I have never heard a controller use this before...
Thanks. It seems to be a standard clearance in many other countries, but for the US and Canada, I think that ATC is not allowed to approve this. That is why I was surprised when he said it.
Re: Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:15 pm
by TA/RA
Ive heard this several times departing YVR and YYZ. My interpretation is that controllers are well aware of the 250kt rule and are not permitted to waive it. I believe that the clearance "cleared for high speed climb" is synonymous with "normal speed" but implies that if a pilot happened to exceed 250kts the controller wouldn't necessarily happen to notice. At the end of the day ATC are not police and this is one of those clearances that are best just not asked about. Its the aviation equivalent of don't ask don't tell.
Re: Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:52 pm
by spaner
Not so may years ago, guys used to get cleared for the "jet climb corner".
Same diff, there is no such sector in the TCU, everyone knew that you were just "getting the nod".
Most of the time, and still today, the guys just wanted to see what she could do.
For arrivals, we get the speed waived all the time. You just have to know how to ask, and you have to know that the guy you are asking... knows how to answer.
I'd be more interested to hear about the guys that are getting pulled from the glass recently because they don't know the difference between a high speed contact and a 172 base to final...what rules/regulations to apply to the maneuver observed, instead of the other way around, and if you're not sure, have a sip of coffee and pretend it didn't happen.
No bent tin, no sin...
Re: Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:07 am
by Big Pistons Forever
spaner wrote:
No bent tin, no sin...
Pretty high bar you are setting
Re: Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:02 am
by spaner
maybe,
Re: Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:27 am
by 4Stroke
Re: Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:25 am
by spaner
I read that way sometimes...fatigue.
Re: Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:33 am
by 16SidedOffice
Prior to the change in CARS at the end of 2010, high speed climbs were commonly issued and happily accepted. The controller was probably just simply offering it.
Re: Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 5:06 pm
by schnitzel2k3
Same difference I guess with 'Keep the speed up' on approach. Can't barrel in above 250 knts but if safely able keep speed up over 200 (3000 agl + 10m).
I've heard of guys getting ticketed for 'keeping the speed' up for controllers because they've had boys from TC in the back monitoring.
Strange.
S.
Re: Cleared for high speed climb
Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 6:40 pm
by hydro
schnitzel2k3 wrote:Same difference I guess with 'Keep the speed up' on approach. Can't barrel in above 250 knts but if safely able keep speed up over 200 (3000 agl + 10m).
Different areas of the country may do or expect different things. But in my specialty, "keep the speed up" most certainly does not imply we want you to break the CAR speed rules.
