My Advice for Getting Through IFR Generic

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Acey91
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My Advice for Getting Through IFR Generic

#1 Post by Acey91 » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:15 am

...through the initial rush of content in the first 2 months, anyway.

Step 1) Probably a good idea to give a damn before you get here. Read a book (perhaps the one they give you) so you don't embarrass yourself. Reading From the Ground Up from cover to cover and memorizing it is not only impossible, but the information will become muddled with ITA stuff. As the first exam is the ITA which is quite in depth, ~95% of your focus prior to course should be on that. But almost immediately after, they hit the ground running so if you have no background in aviation it's good to have at least something of a general knowledge base so every single concept isn't foreign to you.

Step 2) Realize that the tests are the easy part given that they basically spoon feed you the answers in the week prior... but you'll NEED to do extra work in the sim and working with flight strips to get through the evaluations. It has to become automatic.

Step 3) Be careful listening to your radio and LiveATC... they'll want exact phraseology from MANOPS once you get on course and if you've been listening to sloppy phraseology for years, you've got to unlearn it all... quick.

I say this not trying to be some hotshot, but rather because I'm genuinely surprised at how enjoyable and reasonable the workload is if you simply give a damn, and I honestly think the only thing stopping my whole group from going through will be not putting in any extra time doing simulation.
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Last edited by Acey91 on Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

whoop_whoop
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Re: My Advice for Getting Through IFR Generic

#2 Post by whoop_whoop » Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:06 am

I don't view it as being a hot shot, more like helping others do well. Timely advice, thanks!
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Zuludog
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Re: My Advice for Getting Through IFR Generic

#3 Post by Zuludog » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:45 am

So reading From The Ground Up would be detrimental?

Anyone on here have the ITA materials that they no longer want or need? I could use some "Bringing up to speed" as I don't have an extensive background in aviation.
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s1yx
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Re: My Advice for Getting Through IFR Generic

#4 Post by s1yx » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:56 pm

Zuludog wrote:So reading From The Ground Up would be detrimental?

Anyone on here have the ITA materials that they no longer want or need? I could use some "Bringing up to speed" as I don't have an extensive background in aviation.
I would say about 70% of the ITA material is covered directly in From the Ground up, at least until block 7 or 8 of the ITA, whenever it starts getting into the NAVCANADA specific stuff.

If you can get your hands on a millennium edition of FTGU in advance of the ITA then it would definitely be worth your time, but if you already have the ITA then it is the exact same material, a lot of it ripped from FTGU verbatim so at that point your mileage may vary. In my opinion the ITA is a terrible course with numerous errors, and poorly explained/omitted concepts so having the book as a companion piece to refer to when you need something explained better was useful.
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Zuludog
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Re: My Advice for Getting Through IFR Generic

#5 Post by Zuludog » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:16 pm

s1yx - Thanks. :)
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Married a Canadian
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Re: My Advice for Getting Through IFR Generic

#6 Post by Married a Canadian » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:36 pm

Be careful listening to your radio and LiveATC... they'll want exact phraseology from MANOPS once you get on course and if you've been listening to sloppy phraseology for years, you've got to unlearn it all... quick
Very true. More of a push towards standard phraseology now with NAV Canada..which is fine.
Those of us that use sloppy phraseology (ie me) have enough years in now to be able to justify why I use it...unfortunately you won't have that luxury at the start of generic IFR.
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chobs
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Re: My Advice for Getting Through IFR Generic

#7 Post by chobs » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:58 pm

Not sure if original poster still checks this thread/forum, but I hope so.. I found the original post helpful but have several questions ...

1) What stage of the process are you in now? Did you get your license?

2) I've taken a look at MANOPS (at least the one that is available online, presumably an older version) ... It is obviously quite dense... But I would imagine is broken down into sections during training ... Over what length of time in training would you be expected to have an entire chapter memorized? 1 week, 2 weeks, a month? I'm just wondering how quickly MANOPS memorization moves...

3) Similarly, I've heard on tests you are required to quote sections of MANOPS verbatim.. is this like tiny details, or more so the main concepts and most important things? And is it made clear which sections need to be produced verbatim or is it a situation where you have to know it all and hope for the best?

4) Are any of the tests surprise/pop tests, or is there always fair warning and adequate prep time before an evaluation or written test?

5) Do the written tests cover just what was most recently learned, or is at all cumulative? IE. first test will cover A and B, second test will cover A, B, C and D, third test will be on A, B, C, D, E and F, for example. Or first test on A and B, second on C and D, third on E and F...

6) How many tests/evaluations does there end up being?

7) What was your class size and how many ended up getting CT-ed versus how many were successful? What do you think were the contributing factors for each?

8) I've heard people quote at home studying time ranges of anywhere from 1 to 2 hours a night, to 5 to 6 .... The upper extend of that seems a bit extreme, since I would assume being well rested for training is pretty important too and there are only so many waking hours in the day ... How much study time outside of class did you find yourself doing?

Thanks so much if you (or anyone) are able to answer!
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navcanhopeful
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Re: My Advice for Getting Through IFR Generic

#8 Post by navcanhopeful » Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:26 pm

^^^^^^^

Great question
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TheSteamingPile
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Re: My Advice for Getting Through IFR Generic

#9 Post by TheSteamingPile » Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:44 am

chobs wrote:Not sure if original poster still checks this thread/forum, but I hope so.. I found the original post helpful but have several questions ...

1) What stage of the process are you in now? Did you get your license?

2) I've taken a look at MANOPS (at least the one that is available online, presumably an older version) ... It is obviously quite dense... But I would imagine is broken down into sections during training ... Over what length of time in training would you be expected to have an entire chapter memorized? 1 week, 2 weeks, a month? I'm just wondering how quickly MANOPS memorization moves...
It doesn't work like that you only learn what is applicable to the current lesson
3) Similarly, I've heard on tests you are required to quote sections of MANOPS verbatim.. is this like tiny details, or more so the main concepts and most important things? And is it made clear which sections need to be produced verbatim or is it a situation where you have to know it all and hope for the best?
verbatim is word for word exactly.
4) Are any of the tests surprise/pop tests, or is there always fair warning and adequate prep time before an evaluation or written test?
no real pop quizzes in generic. You know from the start of the course roughly when your exams will be and the exact date is refined as you get closer. You receive a review a day before the exam highlighting key MANOPS and ideas that may be on the exam.
5) Do the written tests cover just what was most recently learned, or is at all cumulative? IE. first test will cover A and B, second test will cover A, B, C and D, third test will be on A, B, C, D, E and F, for example. Or first test on A and B, second on C and D, third on E and F...
they are cumulative. The last exam may have ITA questions on it.
6) How many tests/evaluations does there end up being?
4 written exams and 5 sim evaluations though this may change as the course is constantly being adjusted based on trainee feedback.
7) What was your class size and how many ended up getting CT-ed versus how many were successful? What do you think were the contributing factors for each?
class size varies. Most CTs happen as a result of trainees removing themselves due to many reasons. Other than that you are given every opportunity to pass and will only be CT'd if you obviously can't grasp the concepts, put them into practice or are simply not putting in the work necessary.
8) I've heard people quote at home studying time ranges of anywhere from 1 to 2 hours a night, to 5 to 6 .... The upper extend of that seems a bit extreme, since I would assume being well rested for training is pretty important too and there are only so many waking hours in the day ... How much study time outside of class did you find yourself doing?
Personally, 1-2 hours though you may need more or less. Study time is a very personal thing.
Thanks so much if you (or anyone) are able to answer!
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Cheers2813
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Re: My Advice for Getting Through IFR Generic

#10 Post by Cheers2813 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:25 pm

chobs wrote:Not sure if original poster still checks this thread/forum, but I hope so.. I found the original post helpful but have several questions ...

1) What stage of the process are you in now? Did you get your license?

2) I've taken a look at MANOPS (at least the one that is available online, presumably an older version) ... It is obviously quite dense... But I would imagine is broken down into sections during training ... Over what length of time in training would you be expected to have an entire chapter memorized? 1 week, 2 weeks, a month? I'm just wondering how quickly MANOPS memorization moves...

3) Similarly, I've heard on tests you are required to quote sections of MANOPS verbatim.. is this like tiny details, or more so the main concepts and most important things? And is it made clear which sections need to be produced verbatim or is it a situation where you have to know it all and hope for the best?

4) Are any of the tests surprise/pop tests, or is there always fair warning and adequate prep time before an evaluation or written test?

5) Do the written tests cover just what was most recently learned, or is at all cumulative? IE. first test will cover A and B, second test will cover A, B, C and D, third test will be on A, B, C, D, E and F, for example. Or first test on A and B, second on C and D, third on E and F...

6) How many tests/evaluations does there end up being?

7) What was your class size and how many ended up getting CT-ed versus how many were successful? What do you think were the contributing factors for each?

8) I've heard people quote at home studying time ranges of anywhere from 1 to 2 hours a night, to 5 to 6 .... The upper extend of that seems a bit extreme, since I would assume being well rested for training is pretty important too and there are only so many waking hours in the day ... How much study time outside of class did you find yourself doing?

Thanks so much if you (or anyone) are able to answer!
Bit of a different experience for me so far, being 75% complete IFR Generic.

2. The pace of the course will depend on class size, progress, etc. Our class was behind schedule up until only recently when we caught up. Generally how it works is you will do a lesson on some concepts, and then do some simulator runs associated with those concepts, so at minimum you have at least a couple of days to nail down the previous lesson before adding new information. As a rule of thumb I would highly suggest keeping up with this as much as possible, because the information you need to know adds up VERY quickly.

3. Our knowledge tests have been more focused on 'working' type questions, rather than something like "State MANOPS 512.6". You need an extremely strong grasp of the MANOPS concepts to do well in the tests, but it is more about applying it than about spouting it back out verbatim.

4. We had a surprise test on the airspace. We walked in one morning and the test was on the desks and administered like a regular exam, but with no knowledge.

5. The tests we've had tend to focus on the current unit's material, however there is a lot of MANOPs material that bleeds between units and you can expect that stuff to show up on multiple exams. ITA material is also fair game for future tests beyond the initial one.

6. Depends on if you are En Route or Terminal, there are the same number of written exams but I believe En Route has more Sim Evals.

7. We started with 8 which seems to be the typical size. We lost one guy on the first knowledge test, but he wasn't putting any effort into the class so that's on him. We lost another one a couple of weeks ago for personal reasons, so we are down to 6, but god willing all 6 of us will graduate.

8. Personally I do between 2-3 hours most nights for actual studying, extra time spent on the sim is not factored into that. You will learn right away how much time you need to put in to keep up with the lesson material, which is extensive, but you will also have to allocate time to practice your sim runs. Pretty much anyone can do well with the written exams given enough preparation, the Sim is the real test of the course.
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chobs
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Re: My Advice for Getting Through IFR Generic

#11 Post by chobs » Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:09 pm

TheSteamingPile wrote:
chobs wrote:Not sure if original poster still checks this thread/forum, but I hope so.. I found the original post helpful but have several questions ...

1) What stage of the process are you in now? Did you get your license?

2) I've taken a look at MANOPS (at least the one that is available online, presumably an older version) ... It is obviously quite dense... But I would imagine is broken down into sections during training ... Over what length of time in training would you be expected to have an entire chapter memorized? 1 week, 2 weeks, a month? I'm just wondering how quickly MANOPS memorization moves...
It doesn't work like that you only learn what is applicable to the current lesson
I know class isn't just memorizing 'X' number of pages of MANOPS each day, but I guess what I was trying to get a sense of is.... Say each night you were looking to review the MANOPS sections you had covered that day in class.. On an average day would you typically be reviewing 5 pages? 10 pages? 50 pages? I guess I'm just wondering how quickly the material in MANOPs is covered and broken down.
3) Similarly, I've heard on tests you are required to quote sections of MANOPS verbatim.. is this like tiny details, or more so the main concepts and most important things? And is it made clear which sections need to be produced verbatim or is it a situation where you have to know it all and hope for the best?
verbatim is word for word exactly.
I get it is word for word exactly.. But what I was asking was are the things you are asked to reproduce verbatim big main concepts that are quite obvious before the exams (and stuff you're given heads up about from instructors), or will it be some obscure, random small parts of MANOPS needed to produce verbatim that come as a surprise?

Thanks very much for your answers!
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chobs
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Re: My Advice for Getting Through IFR Generic

#12 Post by chobs » Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:14 pm

Cheers2813 wrote:
7. We started with 8 which seems to be the typical size. We lost one guy on the first knowledge test, but he wasn't putting any effort into the class so that's on him. We lost another one a couple of weeks ago for personal reasons, so we are down to 6, but god willing all 6 of us will graduate.
The first knowledge test meaning the ITA test, or first one on MANOPS stuff?

It's unbelievable to me that someone who gets that far and into a training course wouldn't put the effort in to care.

8. Personally I do between 2-3 hours most nights for actual studying, extra time spent on the sim is not factored into that. You will learn right away how much time you need to put in to keep up with the lesson material, which is extensive, but you will also have to allocate time to practice your sim runs. Pretty much anyone can do well with the written exams given enough preparation, the Sim is the real test of the course.
Your 2 to 3 hours of studying a night.. is it typically reviewing what was learned in that past day, or do instructors tell you what you will be working on the next day and it's more advanced preparation? Or a mix?

I wish you the best of luck in the rest of your course in getting your license.

A couple more questions if you don't mind ....

Classroom time is 8 hours a day I assume? I know there's probably not a 'typical' day but would you mind running me through what a normal day might look like?

And having been through this process now, what do you think the best qualities are that determine success for a trainee? Do you think there's an "it" factor that some people just don't have, or do you feel anyone with the general aptitude can learn what is needed through hard work and determination?

And what FIR are you in?
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TheSteamingPile
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Re: My Advice for Getting Through IFR Generic

#13 Post by TheSteamingPile » Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:50 am

I know class isn't just memorizing 'X' number of pages of MANOPS each day, but I guess what I was trying to get a sense of is.... Say each night you were looking to review the MANOPS sections you had covered that day in class.. On an average day would you typically be reviewing 5 pages? 10 pages? 50 pages? I guess I'm just wondering how quickly the material in MANOPs is covered and broken down.
Depends on how much you cover that day. Could be 3-4 MANOPS references and a few definitions or it could be 10 references and no definitions.

I get it is word for word exactly.. But what I was asking was are the things you are asked to reproduce verbatim big main concepts that are quite obvious before the exams (and stuff you're given heads up about from instructors), or will it be some obscure, random small parts of MANOPS needed to produce verbatim that come as a surprise?
Usually a few definitions and maybe a MANOPS. Functional Goal #1. Other than that you aren't required to reproduce many things verbatim.
Thanks very much for your answers!
No problem.
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belivo
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Re: My Advice for Getting Through IFR Generic

#14 Post by belivo » Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:04 pm

Thanks everyone for the detailed information. Best I've seen yet.
Just doing my research about the training and about to apply online in next short while.
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