Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

This forum has been developed to discuss ATS related topics.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

Message
Author
leftoftrack
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 620
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:10 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#26 Post by leftoftrack » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:04 am

HeadingAltitudeSpeed wrote:
I'm not even sure what you are trying to advocate here. Getting a clearance on the ground is the problem and can lead to human factors? I would really like to understand how you come to that conclusion.

As for "listening" to the center frequency for aircraft cleared for an approach; foolish to think that you actually have a clue what is going on based on listening to 5 or 10 minutes of a frequency. Not every aircraft low level around an airport is landing, could be just enrolee. Nothing even says that an aircraft is on the published frequency. It is not unheard of to use a different frequency than published during periods of maintenance or failures. But of course feel free to launch and remain "VFR" (as you describe it) busting clouds while you wonder why center isn't answering your frantic calls requesting a clearance to do what you have already done.
How often do you see pilots rushing from a terminal where they used a pay phone to get an clearance after your guests are seated and briefed with their sole focus on getting fired up programmed and briefed to be airborne within 15 minutes or you get to shut down and do it all over again cause your clearance is no longer valid............Never?
---------- ADS -----------

16SidedOffice
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:04 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#27 Post by 16SidedOffice » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:56 am

Who uses a pay phone anymore? Every time I've issued an an IFR clearance over the phone in the past 15 years, it's been to a crew ready to go with a couple minutes notice.
---------- ADS -----------

leftoftrack
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 620
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:10 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#28 Post by leftoftrack » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:24 am

16SidedOffice wrote:Who uses a pay phone anymore? Every time I've issued an an IFR clearance over the phone in the past 15 years, it's been to a crew ready to go with a couple minutes notice.
That's great where you have cell service. What do you do when you don't have cell service?
---------- ADS -----------

16SidedOffice
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:04 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#29 Post by 16SidedOffice » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:38 pm

If you're that far out in the weeds that there's no cel coverage, then there's a fair chance that the aerodrome also isn't underlying controlled low level airspace. Sat phones are also fairly common for operators that commonly frequent such remote places.
---------- ADS -----------

leftoftrack
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 620
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:10 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#30 Post by leftoftrack » Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:59 am

16SidedOffice wrote:If you're that far out in the weeds that there's no cel coverage, then there's a fair chance that the aerodrome also isn't underlying controlled low level airspace. Sat phones are also fairly common for operators that commonly frequent such remote places.
Have you seen a IFR map of northern Manitoba recently?
---------- ADS -----------

HeadingAltitudeSpeed
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:47 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#31 Post by HeadingAltitudeSpeed » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:34 pm

Might as well give up 16SidedOffice. leftoftrack is obviously the kind of pilot that believes that the rules and procedures in place to ensure a safe system don't apply to him. Wonder if he also puts John Deere parts in is airplane? After all, only an honest AME would notice.
---------- ADS -----------

leftoftrack
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 620
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:10 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#32 Post by leftoftrack » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:53 pm

HeadingAltitudeSpeed wrote:Might as well give up 16SidedOffice. leftoftrack is obviously the kind of pilot that believes that the rules and procedures in place to ensure a safe system don't apply to him. Wonder if he also puts John Deere parts in is airplane? After all, only an honest AME would notice.
A better argument would be how many motorcyclists do you see using arm signals after their road test. They're suppose to but it's unnesacarry and the signal gets accomplished anyway. In the real world people don't signal with their arms or get clearances on the ground when out of contact with ATC
---------- ADS -----------

16SidedOffice
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:04 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#33 Post by 16SidedOffice » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:59 pm

As I mentioned before, there's a crazy amount of uncontrolled low level airspace in Northern Manitoba. Nothing preventing you from departing IFR in class G and picking up a clearance airborne.
---------- ADS -----------

DH Driver
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#34 Post by DH Driver » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:32 pm

Is it possible to get a clearance in the same phone call when you file your IFR flight plan?
---------- ADS -----------

16SidedOffice
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:04 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#35 Post by 16SidedOffice » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:12 pm

DH Driver wrote:Is it possible to get a clearance in the same phone call when you file your IFR flight plan?
Highly unlikely. I wouldn't say impossible but fairly close.
---------- ADS -----------

ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5344
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#36 Post by ahramin » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:31 pm

HeadingAltitudeSpeed wrote:Might as well give up 16SidedOffice. leftoftrack is obviously the kind of pilot that believes that the rules and procedures in place to ensure a safe system don't apply to him. Wonder if he also puts John Deere parts in is airplane? After all, only an honest AME would notice.
Actually, it looks more like leftoftrack simply finds doing things properly too difficult to wrap his head around. An LO chart can be pretty confusing for an IFR amateur.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Rookie50
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1819
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:00 am
Location: Clear of the Active.

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#37 Post by Rookie50 » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:17 am

Not sure what other terminal areas are like --- I file Ifr from an airport underlying a shelf of toronto's class c and arrival routes into Pearson, I've talked to them about what they prefer (that's terminal directly), and they prefer if I can depart VFR, stay clear of the class C, then pick up my clearance airborne. Has worked well so far, I suppose it's easier for them re protecting the airspace, less waiting for me. Of course in IMC conditions I call from the ground for it with a void time.
---------- ADS -----------

kevenv
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 573
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:19 am

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#38 Post by kevenv » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:08 pm

leftoftrack wrote:A better argument would be how many motorcyclists do you see using arm signals after their road test. They're suppose to but it's unnesacarry and the signal gets accomplished anyway. In the real world people don't signal with their arms or get clearances on the ground when out of contact with ATC
Having held a motorcycle license for more than 30 years, I can assure you that I have never been asked nor required to use arm signals while riding. Not during a test nor in normal driving. That's what signal lights are for.

As a "real world" controller I can also tell you that I routinely issue clearances over the phone to pilots that are not in radio contact. I would suggest, respectfully of course, that you have another look at the real world.
---------- ADS -----------

leftoftrack
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 620
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:10 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#39 Post by leftoftrack » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:30 pm

kevenv wrote:
leftoftrack wrote:A better argument would be how many motorcyclists do you see using arm signals after their road test. They're suppose to but it's unnesacarry and the signal gets accomplished anyway. In the real world people don't signal with their arms or get clearances on the ground when out of contact with ATC
Having held a motorcycle license for more than 30 years, I can assure you that I have never been asked nor required to use arm signals while riding. Not during a test nor in normal driving. That's what signal lights are for.

As a "real world" controller I can also tell you that I routinely issue clearances over the phone to pilots that are not in radio contact. I would suggest, respectfully of course, that you have another look at the real world.
Alright you win I've been doing it wrong for the last 7000 hrs. Thanks annonomis Internet people for teaching me how to fly a plane. BTW if you know anyone who's taken a motorcycle road test recently they'll tell you you just made my point for me
---------- ADS -----------

kevenv
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 573
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:19 am

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#40 Post by kevenv » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:24 pm

leftoftrack wrote:Alright you win I've been doing it wrong for the last 7000 hrs. Thanks annonomis Internet people for teaching me how to fly a plane. BTW if you know anyone who's taken a motorcycle road test recently they'll tell you you just made my point for me
I'm confused. I'm not trying to teach you how to fly a plane. I really don't care how you fly a plane. I simply refuted your assertion that real world people don't call on the phone for clearances. Again, I don't really care how you personally do it. I merely pointed out that over the past 20 some years of controlling, up to the near present, I routinely issued clxs to pilots over the phone. Nothing anonymous, my name is Keven and until April when I moved elsewhere, I worked low level enroute in Moncton center.
---------- ADS -----------

HeadingAltitudeSpeed
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:47 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#41 Post by HeadingAltitudeSpeed » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:37 am

Might as well stop feeding this troll. He is obviously one of those guys that is happy to break rules and not only risk his life but those of his passengers and potentially the innocent victim that may be following the rules. Perhaps one day when he decides to launch "VFR" and climb through the clouds trying to get a clearance he will catch a glimpse of the reason why he should do things differently. If he is lucky it will only be a glimpse and not a face full.
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
spaner
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 4:18 am
Location: BC Interior

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#42 Post by spaner » Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:57 am

Touchy subject,

As I said, I don't know why, cu'z it is a pretty simple situation as daily operations go,
BUT, the guys like to choo the beef here; gierke, otto von, but I digress, :mrgreen:

Be safe, be legal, and try to have some fun in the process.

AND, if you can't, then be mean, be bad, and go all out on a black-out-op; :shock:

A clearance?
Easily had, by a number of means, in just the right circumstance, just where and how you need it.
Be prepared, or be jonny-on-the-spot,

Whatever is needed, just do it.

So, what's the problem?

TOO slow, OR just don't understand?
---------- ADS -----------

howard40
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:20 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#43 Post by howard40 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:44 pm

The original post said imc, with controlled airspace above, I think it would be a good safe practice to get the clearance, on the ground, before you blast upwards. You have no clue if anyone's coming, or driving by ifr above,without the call.
---------- ADS -----------

eh3fifty
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:35 am

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#44 Post by eh3fifty » Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:20 am

ahramin wrote:Get a clearance on the ground by phone before you depart.
Bingo! It works like a charm.
controlled airspace directly above it (above 2200AGL)
A small clarification... controlled airspace starts at 2200' AGL. I'm not going to argue at all how you're going to prove if you were at or if you were below that altitude :rolleyes: ...just pointing out the rule.
If you were departing an airport contolled, technically you'd need the vfr release (not enforced outside of the MF).
Not so. Most FSS guys believe this I think because they will file a CADORS if you do depart VFR in VMC without a VFR release.

But as long as you're at an uncontrolled airport, you may depart VFR in VMC if you like, regardless of having the VFR release approval. It's stupid to go without the VFR release approval... but not illegal.
Just to be clear, even if the weather is VFR and you filed IFR, then you cannot enter class E airspace without getting a clearance. i.e. you cannot decide for yourself that you will just remain visual and climb into the airway to pick up clearance.
Yes, you can.

Just make sure you squawk 1200 :D Until you have received and accepted the IFR clearance, you do not have an IFR clearance. Therefore, you are operating under VFR rules and must abide by those rules including remaining VMC.
If you remain in VMC under VFR rules, you can be in controlled airspace with an IFR flight plan filed. There is no specific regulation against it. However, when you are already in controlled airspace and call for your clearance, there's no rule that says the controller has to give it to you.

So go ahead and disregard the proper procedure, you won't get violated as long as you remain VFR, but don't bitch if you can't get your clearance and have to fly the rest of the way VFR.
+1
You would just squawk 1200 (assuming that you are not going to climb above 12,501' while maintaining VFR).
Technicality, Class B is above 12,500', not 12,501'. And another point - altitudes are in 100's and usable altitudes are in 1000' increments (500' increments if looking at IFR and VFR altitudes). The whole BS that if you go 1 foot above 12,500' then you're in Class B airspace is a bunch of crap! As far as ATC is concerned (the people who will violate you for breaking this rule), you're not in Class B until you're 12,800' or above on their radar display.
Now, before you attempt to pick up your clearance, get out of class E airspace. You squawk 1000 (after leaving class E) and then contact an ATC unit for your clearance.
No need to change your squawk before talking to ATC. And no reason to leave class E if you're still in VMC.
Ok, but by what reference is it "proper procedure"?
Photofly, I think he may be talking about the VFR release procedure. If he is, I agree with him. It's legal to depart VFR without the VFR release, but it's stupid to do so. They're not giving it to you for a reason.
---------- ADS -----------
“No one can realize how substantial the air is, until he feels its supporting power beneath him. It inspires confidence at once.”

-Otto Lilienthal

User avatar
Redneck_pilot86
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: between 60 and 70

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#45 Post by Redneck_pilot86 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:04 pm

There is absolutely no requirement to use hand signals on a motorcycle. You have to know them (as you do in a car) but you do not have to use them. In fact, I got reprimanded on my last road test for taking my hand off the handlebar at a stoplight.
---------- ADS -----------
The only three things a wingman should ever say: 1. "Two's up" 2. "You're on fire" 3. "I'll take the fat one"

leftoftrack
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 620
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:10 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#46 Post by leftoftrack » Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:37 pm

Redneck_pilot86 wrote:I got reprimanded on my last road test
Taken a few have you.

You do have to demonstrate that you can find neutral. The only way to do that is put it in neutral and take your hand off the clutch so somehow I think what you got told about why you failed and what the examiner meant were two different things. Good luck on your next test :)
---------- ADS -----------

User avatar
Redneck_pilot86
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1180
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: between 60 and 70

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#47 Post by Redneck_pilot86 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:42 am

It was not a fail, only a reprimand. I took my hand completely off the handlebar to stretch my elbow and the examiner said I was not in control of the bike at that point, should it start to roll. I don't feel like it's a problem, my foot was on the brake, but we all know rides and real world are different, eh?
---------- ADS -----------
The only three things a wingman should ever say: 1. "Two's up" 2. "You're on fire" 3. "I'll take the fat one"

NotDirty!
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 4:04 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#48 Post by NotDirty! » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:02 am

1. Motorcylces:
Remember that motor vehicles are provincially regulated, so requirements may vary depending on what province you're in. So yes, there may be some provinces that still require hand signals on road tests, but also some provinces may have a graduated licensing system which requires multiple road tests. You can't assume that having to do more than one road test means that somebody failed!

2. "VFR"
Comparing doing 53 Km/h in a 50 limit is more akin to crossing 10,000 at 265 kts, 'cause the slippery bugger just didn't "want" to slow down. The motor vehicle equivalent of pretending to be "VFR" as you fly through cloud in controlled airspace to pick up your clearance is "pretending" you're under the limit after 12 pints at the local watering hole, as you drive the wrong way down a one-way street! All of the above are technically violations of the CARs/Highway Traffic Act, but I sincerely hope that we all see the difference between the two.
---------- ADS -----------

fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1381
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#49 Post by fish4life » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:30 am

Left of track what's so hard about flying 10 miles perpendicular to the airway at 2200AGL in MB then you can climb up to 12500 IFR since you will be out from under the airway and get your clearance that way? Also if it takes you more than 5 minutes from the time you hang up the phone to being airborne you are doing it wrong, you can brief your passengers and get all that crap out of the way then run inside and get your clearance on the phone.
---------- ADS -----------

leftoftrack
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 620
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:10 pm

Re: Entering controlled IFR from uncontrolled airport

#50 Post by leftoftrack » Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:42 am

fish4life wrote:Left of track what's so hard about flying 10 miles perpendicular to the airway at 2200AGL in MB then you can climb up to 12500 IFR since you will be out from under the airway and get your clearance that way? Also if it takes you more than 5 minutes from the time you hang up the phone to being airborne you are doing it wrong, you can brief your passengers and get all that crap out of the way then run inside and get your clearance on the phone.
Nurse briefs the pax, the avionics needed to be off for engine start and won't memorize the last route programmed, so after start with a battery charge in the middle and avionics turned on initialized programming the route and running through the after's if I was airborn in 10 minutes from hanging up the phone in the terminal it was a good day.

The good news for everyone who seems upset about my method can rest easy knowing Im long into a 705 machine with an APU and I have a sat phone for any nessacary clearances, I also don't fly anywhere that would ever require me to use the sat phone for that.
---------- ADS -----------

Post Reply

Return to “ATS Question Forum”