Service from terminal areas for VFR

[Rookie50]

Well....another spin on this. I did one Ifr flight while I was there, vmc departure, from cypk, and my clearance from the ground, was only to climb over the airport and contact terminal for a further onward clearance while in a shuttle climb.

No problem vmc, ....but not so good if it was an IMC departure.

[photofly]

Here's an operational question for you: If I contact you in the class E under the YYZ TCA, outbound east or west from CYTZ why do you (not you personally) restrict my altitude long after I could have climbed on squawk of 1200? I'm asking for traffic advisories VFR, not a deconfliction service. Is there a better way for me to request what I'd like? I presume you'd rather have me in contact, but the way it works now is not much of an incentive.

I have to ask...are you asking about climbing into Class C airspace or staying in Class E?
If you are staying in Class E....what type of altitude restriction are we talking about?...I can ask the satellite sector concerned. You are right in that you could climb on a 1200 code but not into Class C airspace. The altitudes in question are not the ones mentioned earlier in the thread.

If you are talking about climbing into Class C airspace then the restrictions are as we have spoken about already..and have nothing to do with service provided to VFR aircraft.

No, staying in the class E.

A typical scenario is westbound along the lakeshore, in the ring where the class C starts above 2500. As VFR traffic I've previously been restricted to 2000, presumably to make it clear I'm not cleared into the class C. A typical exchange would be:

"GXYZ level 2000, climbing now to 2500"
"GXYZ negative, maintain 2000, I'll have higher for you in about 5 miles"

Another scenario is eastbound along the lakeshore. Contact terminal, and they'll approve a climb to say 3000 a mile before the Class C floor rises from 2500 to 3500, and then restrict me to 4000 until close to Oshawa, 10 miles clear of any Class C of because of Porter traffic crossing overhead in the Class E.

I have some westbound VFR trips out of CYTZ coming up. I'll note more carefully what happens.

[cyeg66]

Well....another spin on this. I did one Ifr flight while I was there, vmc departure, from cypk, and my clearance from the ground, was only to climb over the airport and contact terminal for a further onward clearance while in a shuttle climb.

No problem vmc, ....but not so good if it was an IMC departure.

"If" it's an IMC kinda day, then how can you comply with an instruction that would make you do something illegal? Repeat after me: "Unable due weather". This may result in a delay, but oh well, that's the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.

[Rookie50]

Well....another spin on this. I did one Ifr flight while I was there, vmc departure, from cypk, and my clearance from the ground, was only to climb over the airport and contact terminal for a further onward clearance while in a shuttle climb.

No problem vmc, ....but not so good if it was an IMC departure.

"If" it's an IMC kinda day, then how can you comply with an instruction that would make you do something illegal? Repeat after me: "Unable due weather". This may result in a delay, but oh well, that's the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.

I don't understand how in IMC it would have been illegal. I was given a clearance and the clearance limit was confined to a climb over the departure airport, and contacting departure, I was instructed to keep shuttle climbing and I would receive the remainder when high enough. Legal, but would have been extra work programming the rest of the clearance in a shuttle climb, in IMC. And yes, I think I would have refused it in IMC conditions.

Just curious -- Can you explain at a towered airport why they couldn't protect the airspace for a vectored departure so I could input the flight plan on the ground? Perhaps it was to save a delay for me, but that was a first at a towered airport....different.

[Married a Canadian]

No, staying in the class E.

A typical scenario is westbound along the lakeshore, in the ring where the class C starts above 2500. As VFR traffic I've previously been restricted to 2000, presumably to make it clear I'm not cleared into the class C. A typical exchange would be:

"GXYZ level 2000, climbing now to 2500"
"GXYZ negative, maintain 2000, I'll have higher for you in about 5 miles"

Another scenario is eastbound along the lakeshore. Contact terminal, and they'll approve a climb to say 3000 a mile before the Class C floor rises from 2500 to 3500, and then restrict me to 4000 until close to Oshawa, 10 miles clear of any Class C of because of Porter traffic crossing overhead in the Class E.

I have some westbound VFR trips out of CYTZ coming up. I'll note more carefully what happens

.

Photo....Westbound that might have something to do with the fact that YYZ tower can jet turn and prop turn departing aircraft. In this case they climb to 3000ft. On the 24s in particular if you are at 2500f due south of Pearson you could very well be in confliction with a prop/jet on a 180 degree heading from 24R climbing to 3000ft. VFR or not...we have to provide wake separation if you are talking to ATC...and unfortunately 500ft is not enough by our book. That higher in 5 miles comment is probably when you are clear of the departure track off YYZ.

Eastbound?? I will ask the sector concerned. That bit of airspace is busier now with the Porter flights and Skyregional. They don't have a lot of room to work and not many altitudes available to the.

[Pilottoatc]

AirFrame,

I can't speak to a lot of your questions because I'm not a terminal controller, nor do I work in the ACC. When I'm talking about it, mostly I'm using it from my situation as a tower controller. I can't give you any specific answers in regards to terminal, only perhaps reasons these things might be happening to you. Often what you hear on the frequency might not be the total sum of what's going on, that's all.

As for passing primary targets, as the previous poster mentioned, there are a lot potentially out there. We sometimes have a lot of false primary targets, some originating from birds, boats etc, or other various reasons. We do our best to try and use our judgement if it is something pertinent or not, but sometimes there can be so many it could be very impossible to pass all of them. The situation could occur that you are that one primary buried within an area of a few false targets and I may have trouble determining if you are indeed an aircraft. In a tower at least I'll look out the window with binocs and try to see if it is anything. I still don't think this is ok, but if you at least squawk 1200 and mode c gives us an altitude and decent direction of flight to pass traffic with.

I had a look at the YPK departure from an old plate on the Internet. Don't quote me whether the numbers are still the same, it's been a while since I flew it. It's a visual climb to 700 feet over the field, shuttling to 2000 feet over the VOR at the field. I could understand in IMC you might not like it, but is assure you that is the IFR departure. I agree it's a lousy departure for the airport, but again, shuttle climbs over a navaid aren't that uncommon out here in the mountains. I can think of quite a few places where I've had to do that without the nicest weather.

[Pilottoatc]

Rookie50,

For your question, I'm not 100% sure but it probably has to do with airspace, traffic and terrain issues. I don't know the entire criteria, but from my memory and what I know, it's probably because the YPK airport is right in the way of the STAR into YVR and probably due to terrain the minimum vectoring altitude is pretty high. I know that aircraft are as low as 3000' in the vicinity of YPK as they are being vectored onto the ILS in YVR, so the 2000' restriction on the departure gives them the separation from that. They are probably just restricting you to that so when they have a hole between aircraft on the approach, they can climb you above the minimum vectoring altitude and then put you on course. It's just speculation, so I could be totally wrong. If the situation ever comes up again like that with something uncomfortable like that, I suggest you ask the controller to figure out what your anticipated routing will be, so you can have it preprogrammed on the ground before you leave, or at least a waypoint or navaid you might have been cleared to out of the shuttle. The tower guys won't likely know, but they could ask the terminal controller if you requested that.

[photofly]

we have to provide wake separation if you are talking to ATC...and unfortunately 500ft is not enough by our book. That higher in 5 miles comment is probably when you are clear of the departure track off YYZ.

Maybe this is the heart of the matter. How are you *required* to provide any kind of separation to VFR traffic in class E (just to be clear, the altitude I want to climb to is still class E).

Maybe we have a disconnect about what "talking to ATC" means - can't I just get advisories, in Class E?
"Check you're climbing 2500, caution wake turbulence B747 crossing right to left 1 mile 3000 feet"?

I always follow the altitude restriction given, but because I don't know the reason and it's still class E a voice at the back of my head tells me to say "negative, climbing 2500, radar service refused, clearing enroute frequency".

[Rookie50]

Duplicated

[Rookie50]

Rookie50,

For your question, I'm not 100% sure but it probably has to do with airspace, traffic and terrain issues. I don't know the entire criteria, but from my memory and what I know, it's probably because the YPK airport is right in the way of the STAR into YVR and probably due to terrain the minimum vectoring altitude is pretty high. I know that aircraft are as low as 3000' in the vicinity of YPK as they are being vectored onto the ILS in YVR, so the 2000' restriction on the departure gives them the separation from that. They are probably just restricting you to that so when they have a hole between aircraft on the approach, they can climb you above the minimum vectoring altitude and then put you on course. It's just speculation, so I could be totally wrong. If the situation ever comes up again like that with something uncomfortable like that, I suggest you ask the controller to figure out what your anticipated routing will be, so you can have it preprogrammed on the ground before you leave, or at least a waypoint or navaid you might have been cleared to out of the shuttle. The tower guys won't likely know, but they could ask the terminal controller if you requested that.

Pilot, works for me. If I ever did one from there again IMC, even the first waypoint would be helpful, to start with something. Then on AP, as I often do in YYZ terminal, I can program the remainder while starting on course, but my AP wont do a shuttle climb, so in IMC programming as well would be rather busy.

[thenoflyzone]

Maybe this is the heart of the matter. How are you *required* to provide any kind of separation to VFR traffic in class E (just to be clear, the altitude I want to climb to is still class E).

He's not necessarily providing YOU with separation. He's providing it to the A330 that might be 1000 feet above you ! Because trust you me the IFRs don't want to be anywhere near you !

The minute you call up ATC, you are known traffic. The minute you are known traffic, even though in class E airspace, we have a responsibility to provide wake turb separation.

99% of VFRs who call up ATC in class E have no problem with being separated for safety. You are that 1 percentile that calls up ATC but doesn't want the service they offer.

We go above and beyond traffic advisory. If you dont like it, or you feel you can do a better job on your own, then sqk 1200, stay at 2499 ft or below and have fun ! You just better hope your transponder is working fine and that your Mode C is accurate, or else there might be an A380 in class C airspace 1 foot above you !

Thenoflyzone

[CpnCrunch]

We go above and beyond traffic advisory. If you dont like it, or you feel you can do a better job on your own, then sqk 1200, stay at 2499 ft or below and have fun ! You just better hope your transponder is working fine and that your Mode C is accurate, or else there might be an A380 in class C airspace 1 foot above you !

Thenoflyzone

Don't you mean 500ft above?

[photofly]

He's not necessarily providing YOU with separation. He's providing it to the A330 that might be 1000 feet above you ! Because trust you me the IFRs don't want to be anywhere near you !

Then let him give the A330 a cleared altitude 1000 above the floor of the Class C. If the Class C beginning above 2500ASL still isn't big enough for your shiny jets then get TC's airspace people to make it bigger - other than that, where the IFRs do or don't want to be isn't my concern. If 1000 of clearance is needed for the IFR traffic he should be 1000 above the class C floor anyway, since I can be at the top of the class E not receiving a radar service.

We go above and beyond traffic advisory. If you dont like it, or you feel you can do a better job on your own, then sqk 1200, stay at 2499 ft or below

2500 is is still class E. (I'm not sure that "take the service you're given, or p*ss off" exactly fits in my definition of "excellent service provided to VFR traffic", but... whatever.)

You just better hope your transponder is working fine and that your Mode C is accurate, or else there might be an A380 in class C airspace 1 foot above you !

Again, if my transponder isn't working, or my mode C isn't reporting right - that's going to cause you problems but not me. I can't see and don't care about either.

Now if my altimeter is inaccurate, that's my problem.

[Married a Canadian]

where the IFRs do or don't want to be isn't my concern

.

Yes it is...because when you are that close to YYZ...Class E airspace or not....we have to follow the rules in our Manops...and as Noflyzone has said...if you are in contact with us...we have to provide wake separation. 2500 in Class E (legally as you say) against 3000ft in Class C....with you talking to one sector and the shiny IFR jet talking to another sector....you will be kept at 2000ft till we have wake turbulence.

We are telling you the rules of ATC as they stand. If you don't like them...that is not my problem...nor is it a question of service. It is a question of us following our rules. You have said in this thread that you have an understanding of our side of the equation....again, in this instance I am telling you why you might get restricted to 2000ft. Whether you like it or not does not equate to service level.
You have the option of flying in class E legally doing what you need to do without talking to us. There is no argument from me on that. It might help your issues if you do so. It seems you have a problem with what ATC want you to do....without really listening to why we want you to do them.

[photofly]

The wake turbulence restriction in Class E I've not heard before. Thanks for the info.

[CpnCrunch]

So are you saying that if photofly is tootling along at 2500 in class E without talking to anyone and a big shiny jet is at 3000ft in the class C above, the jet will have to be vectored away from photofly? Whereas if photofly is talking to ATC in the class E then you can just tell him to get out of the way instead (thus saving the airline money)?

[Rookie50]

Coming from one who has complained about ATC service the rare occasion --- seriously if VFR's want an unrestricted climb in any direction, it ain't going to happen 6 or 7 miles from Canada's busiest airport. Let's get real and acknowledge reality. Move to northern --- somewhere.

I also recognize as GA ATC will tightly control us in terminal areas for another reason -- they don't always fully trust us, and I don't blame them. I've seen, and heard, GA pilots do some pretty dumb things out there, like turning the wrong way, not responding, and arguing on comm.

[Married a Canadian]

So are you saying that if photofly is tootling along at 2500 in class E without talking to anyone and a big shiny jet is at 3000ft in the class C above, the jet will have to be vectored away from photofly? Whereas if photofly is talking to ATC in the class E then you can just tell him to get out of the way instead (thus saving the airline money)

Pretty much yes. Weird isn't it! The problem is though is the jet in Class C still gets TCAS against photofly in Class E...and if they get an RA it means paperwork and reports from both the airline and ATC. If we have the room to keep 1000ft we will...if we don't...then unfortunately VFR guy in class E talking to ATC just has to hold off 500ft. We are not saving money at that stage of flight....we are saving filling out TCAS forms

If 1000 of clearance is needed for the IFR traffic he should be 1000 above the class C floor anyway, since I can be at the top of the class E not receiving a radar service.

To be honest...no air traffic controller I know would drop a jet on top of a 1200 code in Class E at 2500ft.....by only 500ft.
I think in this case though...the reason why photofly is being kept at 2000ft Westbound is not for anything descending above. It is for the jet/prop turn departures off 24R/L at YYZ. The Dash 8As can be pretty slow in the climb.....they are given 3000ft on a prop turn (say a 180degree heading). So if you are south at 2500ft..it takes longer for them to get above you. 2000ft on your part gives them more of a chance.

We like you being in contact with us and on a known code... so we know what you want and where you are going.
Sometimes this means trying to fit it into the traffic picture as we see it (Class E or not)
As much as ATC can be infuriating at times for pilots...there is nothing worse on our side having some 1200 code in the wrong bit of airspace, at the wrong altitude, going a very bad direction for us!. It happens at least once on a daily basis. Usually once these guys are tracked down their responses don't help the GA VFR pilot cause ( I didn't know where I was guvnor, Oh I thought that I could be at 4000ft there mate etc!).

[Cat Driver]

It happens at least once on a daily basis. Usually once these guys are tracked down their responses don't help the GA VFR pilot cause ( I didn't know where I was guvnor, Oh I thought that I could be at 4000ft there mate etc!).

The best solution is to keep all VFR traffic further away from IFR airspace.

Then we wouldn't have to wonder about the thought process of the photofly's in aviation.

[photofly]

We like you being in contact with us and on a known code... so we know what you want and where you are going.

I'm happy to provide that information to you. But it's frustrating, while flying in airspace that already has precious little room for VFR traffic, to find that voluntarily providing flight information to ATC results in even more airspace restrictions. It's a disincentive to contact Terminal at all. I'm sure you see that.