IFR clearances and FSS

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Bede
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IFR clearances and FSS

Post by Bede » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:04 am

When reading back a clearance with a sid, you only need to read back the sid and Squak code. However when you get a clearance from FSS, ie YYG, they make you read back everything including "Pearson AIRPORT". How come FSS wants a read back above and beyond what is required by the AIM?
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ahramin
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by ahramin » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:43 am

Actually Bede, all you need is the call sign and the code, not necessary to readback the SID.

To answer your question, the above only applies at a controlled airport. An airport with an FSS has a control zone, but is not a controlled airport.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by Justjohn » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:31 am

Because the FSS specialist is Not creating the clearance. They are only relaying a clearance from an IFR controller at centre. If the IFR controller said 'Pearson Airport' the FSS specialist is mandated to read that to you And get that in the read back. Otherwise the FSS person is modifying the clearance.

My wife is an FSS specialist and it is her biggest source of frustration when dealing with pilots. She knows you mean YYZ, but if the clearance she got from centre says 'Pearson International Airport' than that is what she has to get a read back on. Tape checks are done often and that particular item is what they're looking for because it's an easy strike.

I didn't know this either and thought unkind things about a lot of FSS personnel over the years.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by leftoftrack » Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:19 pm

They can be dick's about that. Just keep repeating the clearance back without airport till they either let it go or they loose their minds. It's fun and funny. If.your in a hurry after 5 minutes tell them you'll just pick it up airborne.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by Justjohn » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:13 pm

leftoftrack wrote:They can be dick's about that. Just keep repeating the clearance back without airport till they either let it go or they loose their minds. It's fun and funny. If.your in a hurry after 5 minutes tell them you'll just pick it up airborne.


Unless you are on a VFR departure in VMC, it's a CAR's violation. What a rookie move. Regardless, is it just too much to read back a clearance properly? It's a little childish to make other peoples work difficult just for you're own entertainment.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by ahramin » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:22 pm

Justjohn wrote:Unless you are on a VFR departure in VMC, it's a CAR's violation.
Image

Let me guess, it also invalidates your insurance?

Which CAR would that be exactly?
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by Justjohn » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:25 pm

ahramin wrote:
Justjohn wrote:Unless you are on a VFR departure in VMC, it's a CAR's violation.
Image

Let me guess, it also invalidates your insurance?

Which CAR would that be exactly?[/quote


The one about departing IFR without a valid clearance ....
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by ahramin » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:29 pm

leftoftrack wrote:They can be dick's about that. Just keep repeating the clearance back without airport till they either let it go or they loose their minds.
As others have tried to explain leftoftrack, they aren't being dicks (plural, I'm not sure what of Dick's we'd have a problem with). They are doing their job properly. In this profession, details matter.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by ahramin » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:30 pm

Justjohn wrote:The one about departing IFR without a valid clearance ....
Exactly. The question was, which CAR would that be? Number?
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by Justjohn » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:44 pm

ahramin wrote:
Justjohn wrote:The one about departing IFR without a valid clearance ....
Exactly. The question was, which CAR would that be? Number?



602.31
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by ahramin » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:03 pm

(b) comply with all of the air traffic control clearances received and accepted by the pilot-in-command
No clearance accepted, no violation.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by Justjohn » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:25 pm

ahramin wrote:
(b) comply with all of the air traffic control clearances received and accepted by the pilot-in-command
No clearance accepted, no violation.


Are you for real? You're ranked as a moderator, so I assume that you have a working knowledge of aviation in Canada. Just in case you don't, let me provide the complete quote.


An ATC clearance shall be obtained before takeoff from any point within controlled airspace or before entering controlled airspace for flight under IFR or during IMC. A clearance received by a pilot must be read back to the controller (CAR 602.31),

In this case, the read back is accomplished thru an intermediary. I guess if you felt it necessary, you could could look up the number of the ACC and try to contact the controller at their station and do it that way, but this is the way the air traffic system is set up to work in Canada.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by fish4life » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:53 pm

If it's IMC conditions yes but if you have an IFR flight plan you can depart VFR and get a clearance in the air
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by Justjohn » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:01 pm

If it's IMC conditions yes but if you have an IFR flight plan you can depart VFR and get a clearance in the air



EXACTLY!


Unless you are on a VFR departure in VMC, it's a CAR's violation.[/quote
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by Justjohn » Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:44 pm

You what guy's? I tried to answer the OP's question the best that I could.

I've been flying airplanes for ~30 years and have been a 705 captain for a fairly long time. My wife is a NAV Canada FSS specialist. I thought I would have some genuine insight to the OP's question. You can all go figure it out for yourselves.

Some of you folks make it awfully hard to defend our 'profession' to the wife and her NAV Canada friends. The people in this industry who really think we are professionals are mostly other pilots.

And now I will expect to be flamed away by somebody 'glad' that they are not my F/O. Well, I would like to respond.

ME TOO!

The airline I work for is fairly well known. It respects the CAR's, and is very SOP driven. There is no room for too clever antics that could result in violations or a Cadors. The DFO doesn't want an official, or unofficial, call from the ATC station manager complaining that his pilots are asshats.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by leftoftrack » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:08 am

why is it important to specify whether you're talking about the airport the beacon or the VOR?
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by Justjohn » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:53 am

leftoftrack wrote:why is it important to specify whether you're talking about the airport the beacon or the VOR?

Because if you have a comm failure on departure, and you are IMC, and your clearance limit is the the Airport, the Beacon, or the VOR it has different implications on your course of action and the protected airspace that ATC will provide you.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by single_swine_herder » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:34 am

Thought they stopped issuing clearances "short of destination" a decade or two ago..... and that a place of landing had to be designated in the clearance routing.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by Justjohn » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:49 am

single_swine_herder wrote:Thought they stopped issuing clearances "short of destination" a decade or two ago..... and that a place of landing had to be designated in the clearance routing.

Nope, I often (several time a month) revive clearances with the VOR as the clearance limit. Regardless, it does not relive the pilot of the requirement to read back the clearance with the clearance limit in it.

As an example Toronto airport could be Toronto international, Downsview, or Toronto Island to name a few.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by leftoftrack » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:56 pm

Justjohn wrote:
leftoftrack wrote:why is it important to specify whether you're talking about the airport the beacon or the VOR?

Because if you have a comm failure on departure, and you are IMC, and your clearance limit is the the Airport, the Beacon, or the VOR it has different implications on your course of action and the protected airspace that ATC will provide you.
So if you have a comm failure and it's not clear where you are going say YEG or CYEG how are your actions going to differ?
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by hydro » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:17 pm

Some airport/VOR pairs matter, some don't. If the VOR is 5-10+ miles from the airport, and the controller thinks you are going to the VOR, but you are going to the airport separation could be an issue if another aircraft is minimum spacing away when you make the turn at your second last point.

Other than some navaids in their region, some FSS may not know which ones are collocated and which aren't. Some may know there is a Pearson VOR and a separate Toronto VOR, but not know if one is not at the airport. They don't know which pairs or routes could be misconstrued so they follow their standard to get a (close to) verbatim readback.

Until I looked it up I had no idea whether YEG/CYEG was collocated or not.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by leftoftrack » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:35 pm

And when you get to the VOR with a comm failure co located or not what do you do?
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by ahramin » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:58 pm

The point is if you do go to the VOR when the clearance was for the airport you're in the wrong place and could run into someone who knows what they're doing.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by photofly » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:04 pm

Airports are not navigation points. Without GPS, how could you go directly to the airport, anyway? That's why they invented instrument approaches, and they begin from (or in reference to) beacons or waypoints.

Seems to me any "to the airport" clearance limit is going to have to be replaced with an approach clearance well in advance of actually "going to the airport", and the approach clearance is unambiguous, so the question is moot.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

Post by leftoftrack » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:38 pm

So where are you going to go after crossing the VOR?
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