IFR clearances and FSS

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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#26 Post by thatdaveguy » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:39 pm

Hey 23 reply argument. I have this crazy idea. Just read back AIRPORT in your clearance.

Pros:

- You won't get hassled by FSS (their performance checks watch for this)


Cons:

- You won't be able to argue like a righteous egomaniac on Avcanada
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#27 Post by HeadingAltitudeSpeed » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:24 pm

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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#28 Post by single_swine_herder » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:39 pm

Wow .... HeadingAltitudeSpeed .... that sure looks like pretty appetizing snack food for an evening in front of the computer while watching the hilarity.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#29 Post by Zatopec » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:22 pm

From TC AIM:

An ATC clearance shall be obtained before takeoff from any point within controlled airspace or before entering controlled airspace for flight under IFR or during IMC. A clearance received by a pilot must be read back to the controller (CAR 602.31), except in certain circumstances. When the clearance is received on the ground, before departing a controlled aerodrome, and a SID is included in the clearance, the pilot only needs to acknowledge receipt of the clearance by repeating the aircraft call sign and the transponder Code that was assigned. If there is an amendment to the altitude contained in the SID, that altitude shall also be read back. At any time that the controller requests a full readback, the pilot shall comply. Also, the pilot may, at any time, read back a clearance in full to seek clarification.
.......................................

It works with FSS as well. Pilots may readback an IFR clearance by repeating only the aircraft ident and the code when clearance is received via FSS. Here's why.
..........................
From FSS Manops:

You may omit requesting a readback for an initial ATC clearance issued by an ACC provided: (Note)
A. no changes have been made to the originally filed flight plan;
B. the clearance is issued by referring to a machine printed strip or a video display of the flight plan;
C. the clearance includes a published SID;
D. no alternative instructions are included in the clearance; and
E. there is no apparent misunderstanding of the clearance contents.

Note:
Omission of a readback may be used only for the initial ATC clearance issued to a departing IFR aircraft. Departing IFR aircraft will acknowledge receipt of an ATC clearance by responding with the aircraft call-sign and the assigned transponder code.
....................................

All the conditions from FSS Manops above must be met. If not, the FSS will request a full readback.

In reference to:

A.
At our unit, if there's a change in the flight plan, we will mention it when calling the aircraft for clearance. For example, "ABC123, clearance with a change in the routing". This serves as a heads-up for the crew to, one, they will not receive the routing they filed for and, two, that a full readback will be required. If the SID is modified, we will also mention it.

B.
FSS must have the required equipment.

C.
No published SID for the departing runway, or not included in the clearance if there is one = full readback


In short, not all units can accept it. But where and when available, not all pilots use it. In fact, the vast majority doesn't.


Regarding a VFR departure for an IFR aircraft.
...........................................
From TC AIM:

VFR Release of an IFR Aircraft.

When a delay is experienced in receiving an IFR departure clearance, a pilot may request approval to depart and maintain VFR until an IFR clearance can be received. The conditions in RAC 6.2.1 also apply in this situation. If the request for a VFR departure is approved, the pilot will be given a time, altitude or location at which to contact ATC for an IFR clearance. Depending upon the reasons for the IFR departure clearance delay, a VFR departure of an IFR flight may not be approved by the IFR unit. In situations such as these, it may be desirable for the pilot to wait for the IFR departure clearance.

...........................................

What Justjohn wrote is right:

An ATC clearance shall be obtained before takeoff from any point within controlled airspace or before entering controlled airspace for flight under IFR or during IMC. A clearance received by a pilot must be read back to the controller.

This also works with a FSS. So, in order for an IFR aircraft to depart VFR at an airport located within controlled airspace, it must request a VFR departure. FSS will never directly suggest it. What you may hear is something like "IFR inbound in five minutes, expect delays for clearance". Just like a clearance, FSS will relay it. In fact, a VFR departure is a clearance to an IFR aircraft to depart under VFR until a specified time, altitude or location at which to expect an IFR clearance (even though we will not say "ATC clears" but rather "VFR departure is approved"), and as such a readback is required. This is not always applied I must say.

If an IFR aircraft is to depart without receiving it if denied, two things will happen:

1- FSS will advise center of the incoming aircrat in its controlled airspace without any sort of clearance;
2- FSS will file a report (CADORS).

Now, will a violation be issued? I don't know. It's up to TC to decide.

Hope this helps.


While I'm at it, I would like to discuss a few more things. Please don't take it as a rant. My intention is simply to try to provide a better understanding and suggest ways that will allow ATS to give better and more efficient services to pilots.

If ATIS is available and you have received it, please say so when stating your intentions by repeating the code letter. It will tell the FSS what informations you already know and will allow him/her to customise the advisory by not repeating the informations you already have or even ask you if you have the ATIS. It greatly reduces frequency congestion, especially when the weather is bad, there are NOTAMs or RSC recorded on the ATIS. Very often we hear pilots say after receiving the advisory that they had the ATIS. This is of no help anymore.

Sometimes (read often...lol) the initial contact isn't a real one. An initial contact should look like "Whatever Radio, ABC123". Sometimes pilots will keep on going and state all their intentions one shot without waiting for a reply from the Radio. The specialist may already be on another frequency or be busy with some other task and not be able and ready to hear and record on the flight strip the informations being broadcasted, or even know who called. Most likely, he/she will reply with "Aircraft calling Radio, say again". Waste of time and of no help at all.

Some FSS units are requested to transfer IFR aircraft to Center frequency after departure. It will sometimes be mentionned before departure: "ABC123 contact Montreal Center 123.45 airborne". That does not mean that pilots are allowed not to monitor the MF anymore once airborne. I know that sounds like it but this is not the intent. It is stated in CARs that aircraft must monitor the MF while in the MF area. Calling Center whenever ready is fine but a listening watch on the MF must be maintained until leaving the zone. We may have new important informations, new trafic for example, that we will not be able to provide if the aircraft isn't on the frequency anymore. This also doesn't mean that from there on all succesive required calls are waived. This happens all the time and, depending on the circumstances, may affect security.

One last thing. When it's busy on the frequency make sure you get a hold of FSS before leaving the gate/FBO. Please don't start taxiing. Hold your position to make sure you won't get ahead of trafics that may have already received advisories and clearances. I could easily throw disorder in the actual order of things and could bring up unexpected delays to other aircraft.

Once again, hope this helps. Comments or questions welcome.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#30 Post by Pilottoatc » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:38 pm

Sometimes (read often...lol) the initial contact isn't a real one. An initial contact should look like "Whatever Radio, ABC123". Sometimes pilots will keep on going and state all their intentions one shot without waiting for a reply from the Radio. The specialist may already be on another frequency or be busy with some other task and not be able and ready to hear and record on the flight strip the informations being broadcasted, or even know who called. Most likely, he/she will reply with "Aircraft calling Radio, say again". Waste of time and of no help at all.

This may be a personal thing, but where I work if we get the so called "wake up call" when we are really busy, I get kind of pissed off. It wastes my time when I'm busy on the frequency because it has added two unnecessary transmissions to finally hear the pilots location and intentions that they could have given me on the first call. That won't work on a busy day! Don't get me wrong, if it's not busy the wake up call is fine.

Example:
"XXXX Tower, Cessna 172 GABC"
"Cessna GABC, XXXX Tower"
"GABC over XXXX at 3500' with Hotel, circuits"
"ABC, Runway 09, wind 080 @ 10, altimeter 29.92, cleared straight in"

OR

"XXXX Tower, Cessna 172 GABC over XXXX at 3500' with hotel, circuits"
"Cessna GABC, XXXX Tower, Runway 09, wind 080 @ 10, altimeter 29.92, cleared straight in."
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#31 Post by Rookie50 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:50 am

Pilottoatc wrote:
Sometimes (read often...lol) the initial contact isn't a real one. An initial contact should look like "Whatever Radio, ABC123". Sometimes pilots will keep on going and state all their intentions one shot without waiting for a reply from the Radio. The specialist may already be on another frequency or be busy with some other task and not be able and ready to hear and record on the flight strip the informations being broadcasted, or even know who called. Most likely, he/she will reply with "Aircraft calling Radio, say again". Waste of time and of no help at all.

This may be a personal thing, but where I work if we get the so called "wake up call" when we are really busy, I get kind of pissed off. It wastes my time when I'm busy on the frequency because it has added two unnecessary transmissions to finally hear the pilots location and intentions that they could have given me on the first call. That won't work on a busy day! Don't get me wrong, if it's not busy the wake up call is fine.

Example:
"XXXX Tower, Cessna 172 GABC"
"Cessna GABC, XXXX Tower"
"GABC over XXXX at 3500' with Hotel, circuits"
"ABC, Runway 09, wind 080 @ 10, altimeter 29.92, cleared straight in"

OR

"XXXX Tower, Cessna 172 GABC over XXXX at 3500' with hotel, circuits"
"Cessna GABC, XXXX Tower, Runway 09, wind 080 @ 10, altimeter 29.92, cleared straight in."
I've been trying to do that as a pilot. Its hit and miss if they get it, it seems. On my inbound the other day, called up tower, who was busy: "tower, GABC, 10 east, inbound, hotel". Kept it short. Tower comes back "GABC, tower, say intentions". So seems I gave too much info.

On the way out, called up terminal, who know my call sign as a regular. First call, "terminal, GABC, off xxx for YYy VFR" Terminal comes back, "GABC, identified 2500". Perfect. No wasted words.

So I'm still not sure what is preferred to be honest. Seems when busy, all in one call might be too much.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#32 Post by Braun » Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:46 pm

Personnally, as an ATC, I prefer that the a/c calls me with just his ident and then I can either say GABC squawk ident go ahead your intentions or if I am busy GABC squawk ident standby, i'll get back to you.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#33 Post by Pilottoatc » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:35 pm

I've been trying to do that as a pilot. Its hit and miss if they get it, it seems. On my inbound the other day, called up tower, who was busy: "tower, GABC, 10 east, inbound, hotel". Kept it short. Tower comes back "GABC, tower, say intentions". So seems I gave too much info.

On the way out, called up terminal, who know my call sign as a regular. First call, "terminal, GABC, off xxx for YYy VFR" Terminal comes back, "GABC, identified 2500". Perfect. No wasted words.

So I'm still not sure what is preferred to be honest. Seems when busy, all in one call might be too much.
I think it's all up to personal preference. Speaking for the tower I work at, I know collectively as a group we complain about the "wake up call" and would rather have it all in one go. Personally, I think your call to tower was great. Short and to the point, you would have given me everything I needed. I would say, don't stop with that, just because they didn't seem to hear it once, doesn't mean it won't work next time. Typically where I work we don't get calls that are that good and to the point, so kudos to you!
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#34 Post by Rookie50 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:22 am

Pilottoatc wrote:
I've been trying to do that as a pilot. Its hit and miss if they get it, it seems. On my inbound the other day, called up tower, who was busy: "tower, GABC, 10 east, inbound, hotel". Kept it short. Tower comes back "GABC, tower, say intentions". So seems I gave too much info.

On the way out, called up terminal, who know my call sign as a regular. First call, "terminal, GABC, off xxx for YYy VFR" Terminal comes back, "GABC, identified 2500". Perfect. No wasted words.

So I'm still not sure what is preferred to be honest. Seems when busy, all in one call might be too much.
I think it's all up to personal preference. Speaking for the tower I work at, I know collectively as a group we complain about the "wake up call" and would rather have it all in one go. Personally, I think your call to tower was great. Short and to the point, you would have given me everything I needed. I would say, don't stop with that, just because they didn't seem to hear it once, doesn't mean it won't work next time. Typically where I work we don't get calls that are that good and to the point, so kudos to you!
It may be though I need to slow it down a touch. I tend not to be an ahhh...ummmm....opposite issue -- I speak fairly quickly -- no extra words -- perhaps a brief pause if its all in one call, -- maybe add "Skylane" in front --- give ATC a chance to process there's a new AC calling. Definately in the US, I need to slow down my callsign articulation; they need more time with the canadians. YYZ terminal knows me; so they get it instantly.

Its also hard to tell, when doing a call that way, that for sure I'm not cutting someone off. Also might depend; I usually file IFR; so on the handoff the next sector or tower knows about me prior to callup, less of a surprise. This past flight was a VFR, tower had no idea I was about to call him, no flight plan or strip for him to refer to, so perhaps the wake op is better.

Some of the pilot calls I've heard are painful -- I listened to live ATC to try to learn the correct pace and lingo as a new PPL -- way back when.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#35 Post by leftoftrack » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:47 am

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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#36 Post by eh3fifty » Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:45 am

If an IFR aircraft is to depart without receiving it if denied, two things will happen:

1- FSS will advise center of the incoming aircrat in its controlled airspace without any sort of clearance;
2- FSS will file a report (CADORS).

Now, will a violation be issued? I don't know. It's up to TC to decide.
There is no violation if an aircraft departs VFR in VMC without an approval for a VFR departure. It's just stupid to do it.

ATC checks weather in the area and the traffic in the area to determine if you'll be stuck down low for awhile before being able to get an IFR clearance. If it looks like you won't be stuck low that long, ATC will approve the VFR departure.

Without an IFR clearance you are a VFR aircraft. If you want to depart VFR in VMC at an uncontrolled airport that is completely up to you. ATS may be required to file a CADORS but that does NOT indicate a violation. ATS is also required to file a CADORS for every aircraft that departs below 1/2SM. You'll see a bunch of CADORS for AC and WestJet when visibility tanks.

As far as sending a "wake up call" or not, it all depends on the controller and how busy they are and how many frequencies they're monitoring. It's best to listen for at least a few seconds on the FSS freq before speaking to judge how busy it is and to know when it is the appropriate time to start your transmission. If FSS just told an aircraft an advisory on another aircraft, wait for the acknowledgment reply from the aircraft before speaking!

If ATS was just speaking to someone in the area I'm flying then I'll usually go right into my intentions and that I "have the numbers" on the first call. If nobody is on freq when I tune in then I'll usually do the wake up call since they could be talking to someone else. That's generally how I decide if I'll do a wake up call or not. ATS guys and galls, what do you think of that?
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#37 Post by Zatopec » Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:43 pm

eh3fifty wrote:
There is no violation if an aircraft departs VFR in VMC without an approval for a VFR departure. It's just stupid to do it.

Without an IFR clearance you are a VFR aircraft. If you want to depart VFR in VMC at an uncontrolled airport that is completely up to you. ATS may be required to file a CADORS but that does NOT indicate a violation.
True for an airport located outside controlled airspace. You can go and request a clearance airborne before entering controlled airspace.

If the airport is located within controlled airspace it's different. An aircraft that filed an IFR flight plan and proceeding for departure in accordance with that flight plan is considered by ATS as an IFR aircraft. It will require an IFR clearance to depart. In order to depart VFR in VMC it must receive an VFR departure approval from ATC. Other options are to cancel the IFR flight plan and change it to a VFR, or proceed under a VFR company note. ATS will file a report for any IFR aircraft that takes-off without and IFR clearance of a VFR departure approval.

TC will decide about the violation, probably based on CARS 602.121 (2), which states:

No pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall conduct an IFR flight within controlled airspace unless the aircraft is operated in accordance with an air traffic control clearance pursuant to section 602.31.

That's how I see it.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#38 Post by Big Pistons Forever » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:03 pm

On a recent flight:

Me: Terminal (my airplane type) GABC

ATC: Hi ya (my first name) yah going to XXX

Me: Yup, Five point five

ATC: ABC cleared to XXX, Five thousand Five hundred

:smt040
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#39 Post by ahramin » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:11 pm

Zatopec wrote:If the airport is located within controlled airspace it's different. An aircraft that filed an IFR flight plan and proceeding for departure in accordance with that flight plan is considered by ATS as an IFR aircraft. It will require an IFR clearance to depart. In order to depart VFR in VMC it must receive an VFR departure approval from ATC. Other options are to cancel the IFR flight plan and change it to a VFR, or proceed under a VFR company note. ATS will file a report for any IFR aircraft that takes-off without and IFR clearance of a VFR departure approval.

TC will decide about the violation, probably based on CARS 602.121 (2), which states:

No pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall conduct an IFR flight within controlled airspace unless the aircraft is operated in accordance with an air traffic control clearance pursuant to section 602.31.

That's how I see it.
I think you're getting confused between an IFR flight plan on file and an IFR clearance. Different animals.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#40 Post by grimey » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:01 am

If you depart VFR in VMC without a VFR departure approval, that's fine. But the ACC may not be able to get you a clearance for quite a while, so I hope you're happy at 12,500, or wherever the bases are, possibly all the way to your destination. If you get the approval first, they'll likely get you a clearance as soon as they have you radar identified. It's probably easier to simply read back the clearance properly, if you learn proper shorthand it's not hard to get it all verbatim.

It's been 6 years, so this may have changed, but that's how it was when I was in Thompson.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#41 Post by grimey » Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:16 am

Zatopec wrote: If the airport is located within controlled airspace it's different. An aircraft that filed an IFR flight plan and proceeding for departure in accordance with that flight plan is considered by ATS as an IFR aircraft. It will require an IFR clearance to depart. In order to depart VFR in VMC it must receive an VFR departure approval from ATC. Other options are to cancel the IFR flight plan and change it to a VFR, or proceed under a VFR company note.
Which is what they're doing, or limiting themselves to 25nm of the airport until they can get an IFR clearance and open their flight plan. They're then picking up a clearance for their IFR plan once airborne, though as they departed without approval, the ACC isn't required to get it for them at any specific time. RAC 6.2.2
6.2.2 VFR Release of an IFR Aircraft
When a delay is experienced in receiving an IFR departure
clearance, a pilot may request approval to depart and maintain
VFR until an IFR clearance can be received. The conditions in
RAC 6.2.1 also apply in this situation. If the request for a VFR
departure is approved, the pilot will be given a time, altitude
or location at which to contact ATC for an IFR clearance.
Depending upon the reasons for the IFR departure clearance
delay, a VFR departure of an IFR flight may not be approved
by the IFR unit. In situations such as these, it may be desirable
for the pilot to wait for the IFR departure clearance.
That last bit wouldn't be there if it wasn't ok NOT to wait for the clearance. It's just that without approval, the pilot may be VFR the whole way.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#42 Post by eh3fifty » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:51 am

grimey wrote:If you depart VFR in VMC without a VFR departure approval, that's fine. But the ACC may not be able to get you a clearance for quite a while, so I hope you're happy at 12,500, or wherever the bases are,
Try 700' AGL or 2200' AGL. I haven't heard of a place that gives a VFR release if it's uncontrolled to 12,500' or FL180.

Zatopec..
ATS will file a report for any IFR aircraft that takes-off without and IFR clearance of a VFR departure approval.
Filing a report is not an indication that an aircraft violated a rule. If there was a rule that was broken then TC can use the CADOR as a reference but a CADOR is not automatically an indication that a rule was broken.
In order to depart VFR in VMC it must receive an VFR departure approval from ATC. Other options are to cancel the IFR flight plan and change it to a VFR, or proceed under a VFR company note.
No such thing as a "VFR company note" even though it still abounds in use by pilots and ATC.

I've got MANOPS with the ATCD 2014-1 amendment and nowhere does it mention what a "company note" is. The latest TC AIM also does not have "company note" anywhere in it.

There is no requirement anymore for ATC to confirm that an aircraft is traveling on a VFR itinerary before closing their IFR flight plan (see the 404.1 Note below). As long as you are in, a) uncontrolled airspace in VMC or IMC, or b) in controlled airspace in VMC (Class E), you may close your IFR flight plan with ATC.

There are two options a pilot has: 1) to cancel IFR - changing to a VFR flight and keeping the flight plan; or 2) to close the flight plan.

To eliminate confusion I recommend using the word "cancel" with "IFR" and the word "close" with "flight plan". You cancel a clearance and you close a flight plan.

So, when you as the pilot call ATC, all you need to say is either: 1) "...cancel IFR, keep alerting."; or 2) "...close the flight plan."

The 'keep alerting' part is added because ATC will ask if you want to close the flight plan once you tell them to cancel IFR. This eliminates unnecessary chatter.

There is no need to say: "...cancel IFR and proceed VFR company note." What you are actually doing is just closing the flight plan.

This does not change the requirement to have an itinerary with someone (usually your company) before you close your flight plan with ATC.

Old habits die hard but that's one thing I'd really like to see die!

Here is the excerpt from the current issue of MANOPS: http://i.imgur.com/d2cpDF8.png
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#43 Post by ahramin » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:10 am

eh3fifty wrote:
grimey wrote:If you depart VFR in VMC without a VFR departure approval, that's fine. But the ACC may not be able to get you a clearance for quite a while, so I hope you're happy at 12,500, or wherever the bases are,
Try 700' AGL or 2200' AGL. I haven't heard of a place that gives a VFR release if it's uncontrolled to 12,500' or FL180.
You don't need a clearance to be VFR in Class E.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#44 Post by photofly » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:16 am

Or class D.
There is no requirement anymore for ATC to confirm that an aircraft is traveling on a VFR itinerary before closing their IFR flight plan (see the 404.1 Note below). As long as you are in, a) uncontrolled airspace in VMC or IMC, or b) in controlled airspace in VMC (Class E), you may close your IFR flight plan with ATC.
Can you provide a bit more detail about closing your IFR flight plan in uncontrolled airspace while in IMC.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#45 Post by eh3fifty » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:44 am

ahramin wrote:
eh3fifty wrote:
grimey wrote:If you depart VFR in VMC without a VFR departure approval, that's fine. But the ACC may not be able to get you a clearance for quite a while, so I hope you're happy at 12,500, or wherever the bases are,
Try 700' AGL or 2200' AGL. I haven't heard of a place that gives a VFR release if it's uncontrolled to 12,500' or FL180.
You don't need a clearance to be VFR in Class E.
Yup. Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant that Class E starts then and if it's low IMC conditions you'll be stuck down low because you can't enter controlled airspace without a clearance in IMC.

Departing an airport with Class G up to just below FL180, you can depart and be IMC all the way up to just below the FLs.

I see he was meaning if it was VMC you'd be stuck at 12,500' for Class B.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#46 Post by eh3fifty » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:49 am

photofly wrote:Or class D.
There is no requirement anymore for ATC to confirm that an aircraft is traveling on a VFR itinerary before closing their IFR flight plan (see the 404.1 Note below). As long as you are in, a) uncontrolled airspace in VMC or IMC, or b) in controlled airspace in VMC (Class E), you may close your IFR flight plan with ATC.
Can you provide a bit more detail about closing your IFR flight plan in uncontrolled airspace while in IMC.
Is there anything specific you'd like to know?

If you're in uncontrolled airspace you only require an IFR itinerary for IMC conditions. The Operational Flight Plan that I submit before departing has the information required to be considered an itinerary - either IFR or VFR.

Let's say I leave controlled high level airspace and enter Class G below FL180. Below FL180 I don't require an IFR clearance and I don't require a flight plan with ATC. I could keep it with ATC and then once I land, call and close the flight plan. Or I could close the flight plan through FL180 as I have an itinerary with the company. I could remain IFR or VFR as I so choose.

EDIT: I will leave the flight plan open, for example, if my alternate routing will take me into controlled airspace and there is a chance I'll be needing to go to my alternate. That way, ATC has a strip on me already which makes things easier for both of us when I call up asking for a clearance.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#47 Post by QTFSSer » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:48 pm

leftoftrack wrote:They can be dick's about that. Just keep repeating the clearance back without airport till they either let it go or they loose their minds. It's fun and funny. If.your in a hurry after 5 minutes tell them you'll just pick it up airborne.

Allow me to preface my response to this by saying from my personal experience, most ATS personnel take a certain amount of pride in their "radio ear", and in voice recognition when it comes to pilot communication.

With that in mind, the fact that ANY pilot would want to start a "pissing contest" with a flight service specialist (who can infract a pilot via an aviation occurrence report over the slightest CARS violation is beyond comprehension.

In summary, Mr. Left of Track, I strongly urge you to "bone up" on CARS, concentrating mainly on communications, and mandatory reporting points!

PS: "If your in a hurry" should probably read "If you're in a hurry"

Just sayin'
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#48 Post by leftoftrack » Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:30 pm

QTFSSer wrote:
leftoftrack wrote:They can be dick's about that. Just keep repeating the clearance back without airport till they either let it go or they loose their minds. It's fun and funny. If.your in a hurry after 5 minutes tell them you'll just pick it up airborne.

Allow me to preface my response to this by saying from my personal experience, most ATS personnel take a certain amount of pride in their "radio ear", and in voice recognition when it comes to pilot communication.

With that in mind, the fact that ANY pilot would want to start a "pissing contest" with a flight service specialist (who can infract a pilot via an aviation occurrence report over the slightest CARS violation is beyond comprehension.

In summary, Mr. Left of Track, I strongly urge you to "bone up" on CARS, concentrating mainly on communications, and mandatory reporting points!

PS: "If your in a hurry" should probably read "If you're in a hurry"

Just sayin'
I got friends who are inspectors, you think TC enforcement is going to chase me over a non violation you probibly don't realize what kind of staffing issues they're having. Good luck "infracting"
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#49 Post by HeadingAltitudeSpeed » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:30 pm

leftoftrack wrote:I got friends who are inspectors, you think TC enforcement is going to chase me over a non violation you probibly don't realize what kind of staffing issues they're having. Good luck "infracting"
Obviously not very good ones if they keep letting you get away with the shit you describe. But then again it's probably all Troll breath.
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Re: IFR clearances and FSS

#50 Post by QTFSSer » Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:42 am

leftoftrack wrote:
QTFSSer wrote:
leftoftrack wrote:They can be dick's about that. Just keep repeating the clearance back without airport till they either let it go or they loose their minds. It's fun and funny. If.your in a hurry after 5 minutes tell them you'll just pick it up airborne.

Allow me to preface my response to this by saying from my personal experience, most ATS personnel take a certain amount of pride in their "radio ear", and in voice recognition when it comes to pilot communication.

With that in mind, the fact that ANY pilot would want to start a "pissing contest" with a flight service specialist (who can infract a pilot via an aviation occurrence report over the slightest CARS violation is beyond comprehension.

In summary, Mr. Left of Track, I strongly urge you to "bone up" on CARS, concentrating mainly on communications, and mandatory reporting points!

PS: "If your in a hurry" should probably read "If you're in a hurry"

Just sayin'
I got friends who are inspectors, you think TC enforcement is going to chase me over a non violation you probibly don't realize what kind of staffing issues they're having. Good luck "infracting"
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that you have friends in low places. I sincerely hope that your flying skills are vastly superior to your spelling/grammar skills.
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